Thread:Overseer80/@comment-25030828-20140606141700/@comment-25030828-20140611133943

Overseer80 wrote: Oh, it's not you. If anything it's me actually. I tend to not like debating. And that you see, represents a dilemma of mine that goes like this: whenever someone (anyone) says or posts something that I (often vehemently) disagree with, my natural inclination is to challenge, and if possible correct, the offending statement so as not to mislead other people who stumble upon it. But I have learned from experience that this course of action inevitably invites people who seek to challenge everything I say. At which point it becomes a back-and-forth with people who I more often than not seem incapable of finding any middle ground with. So you can see what the problem is. But it's not you who's the issue.

Now then, onto the argument itself:

1. I suppose there is that, but I still feel like Po's attempt at reaching out to him was still sincere enough that Shen's taking it speaks poorly of him, certainly much moreso than it does of Po. But I can see the distinctions you're making between Shen's acceptance of his death versus Owlman's nihilistic attack, but I feel that the comparison to Cutler Beckett still stands.

As to the TV Tropes parts...

Pre Vizsla: Your post only serves to prove my point. A guy who shoots one of his own men in the face for failing him and was fine with letting Maul force choke his second in command doesn't care about his men. Bo-Katan cared about Vizsla, but that's more proof that she isn't a CM then it is proof that Vizsla isn't a CM. So your post really only gets at what I was trying to explain. There's also his trying to get his people into a war that would get quite a few of them killed. But apparently he still cares about his people. It was like trying to argue with a tree. In fact I think I'd have had more luck doing that.

Stalin: The worst mass murderer in history is not the kind of person I see as having positive qualities and I don't count being nice to your waiter or secretary or knowing hwo to smile in front of a crowd as positive qualities.

Miranda: Once again, your response only proves my point. Among the edits I had to undo for that character included claims that she "had no value for human life whatsoever", that her romance scene is a Kick the Dog moment, and other attempts at vilifying the character based on her misplaced loyalties. That the site also goes out of it's way to defend equally objectionable (and in my eyes worse) characters from that same series only makes it worse.

Bane, Zannah, Scar, and Syndrome: And yet again, your response shows what I'm getting at. If Bane and Zannah are CMs in spite of their tragic pasts, then how, pray tell does Syndrome get off scott free? It's laughable. I would argue Darth Krayt is about as sympathetic (or unsympathetic) as Syndrome and yet he's seen as a CM too. I'm pretty sure that is what you call hypocrisy.

And as to the very last part, that's something we can agree on. Apologies for the late reply, been busy with stuff...

Oh, it's fine. I tend to be of the more apologetic type, so don't let that bother you too much. But I can completely understand why you are not that keen on debating – stalemates can be rather unpleasant, and even more unpleasant to try to break.

1. While I thoroughly agree that Po's attempt at redeeming Shen was sincere enough, I do not think it was the most conducive environment for such an event, which was further aggravated by Shen's already destabilised mental state. So, yeah, I disagree that he was in a proper condition to make sound life-choices that it would speak poorly of his character. But I can agree on the comparison to Lord Beckett.

In reply to your TV Tropes responses, yeah, that pretty much is what I was trying to say, though I think that represents the problem with all free-to-edit sites: There's bound to be very unfounded opinions passed off as fact.

As for Joseph Stalin... I think you said it best – debates involving real-life historical figures can get very... messy, for a lack of a better term. Just look at the YouTube comment section... That's why I'd rather not comment on anything.

Overall, I still do not consider Shen to be a CM, though he does come close. He's definitely more horrendous than your average vile villain, but the movie does portray his issues and mental deterioration well enough to make him sympathetic enough (to me, that is). That being said, I can see where you are coming from and, to be honest, Virtuously Vile seems a pretty good middle ground that I can somewhat accept the CM status... not that anything can be done to change categories anymore, seeing that the page has locked due to pointless edit-warring...