User talk:Ultimate Law of Kaitlyn

Welcome
Hi, welcome to Villains Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Acnologia page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- MajinAbura (Talk) 02:02, May 4, 2012

Angel (Fairy Tale)
Fine, I'll fix the Angel page for ya. I got your back. I'm always good with the damn cleanup. Besides, I too hate it when things get messy. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 01:41, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm totally sorry, I was late to cleanup the Angel (Faiy Tale). I got sidetracked and my computer timer @ the Aurora Public Library was finished @ 7:50pm before they closed @ 8pm. Long story short. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 22:25, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

I've only read it. That's it. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 22:39, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Only half of the whole manga. The reason for why I couldn't get enough time to read the whole frickin' thing & I apologized, is because some other wiki contributors was bitchin' to me yesterday about some idiot named SummerMonkey  kept adding the Chaotic Good to the Character Alignment page and I had to get rid of it for them before my timer ran out on me. That's all. I gotta go. I'll see ya next time... - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 23:05, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

I've just read what there is to know on both Wikipedia and Fairy Tail's official wiki, before I left. & yes, I figured it's ongoing. I don't know how but I wouldn't bother to ask questions. All can I do for you is fix whatever problems you got such as worse spelling, incorrect info, capitalizaion (AaBbCc), Italizin' words (word) &/or even bull$**t editing if somebody has a nerve to be a dick about it, things like that. That is all. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 20:00, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Problem User
Hey, did you leave the Problem User message on my userpage? It's cool if you did or not, I'm just curious. Thank you. - Best regard B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 01:41, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Any time! I'm always happy to help others out.

- Eoin Ghost.

Eoin here. I'm sorry if did anything wrong. by the way, what a template?

Lol...
XD It's a game but it did have like a online comicbook or whatever on Dreamweaver. Besides, It's nobody's fault. I used to play and beat both Maximo: Ghosts to Glory & Maximo: Army of Zin. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 23:36, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

You've forgot to italicize Toriko. It's like this, Toriko. See? - Best regard B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 00:00, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Lol... I hear ya. I'm just doin' all the spelling for everybody, just to make things just, I dunno, sensible. Plain & simple. How do I know? Years of practice, same with my own years of drawing and painting. I done some artworks myself and was good at it since I was a kid. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 00:20, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Plus Toriko like every other manga, movie, videogame, the list goes on, should be always be capitalized and yes, italicized. - Best regard B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 00:20, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Lmao damn! That's good one! With Granny Chyo slcin' & dicin' some dude, that is funny! Lol - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 15:31, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

You remind me of the babe
Hello there, Kaitlyn! It's cool to see you editing over here. :) I was just browsing this wiki and I thought I recognized you from Wookieepedia. It's great to see you again! I look forward to editing with you in the future. CadeCalrayn 07:21, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Answering your question
The reason I removed Gay Bashing from Slim Shady is because that category doesn't exist. If you create the category before adding pages to it, then it would be valid.Moleman 9000  20:50, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest we redirect Homophobia to Gay Bashing.Moleman 9000  20:50, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

By the way, if you need proof that I'm not a total gay–hating asshole, I'm the one who created the Fred Phelps article. I don't hate gays, I hate homosexuality itself, it being a sin, but everyone has sins, and I know when people go too far. Moleman 9000  20:50, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

No problem - technically ALL neo-nazi, fascist and extreme right groups could be listed but I honestly couldn't add them all even if I wanted to.. only added the ones that are especially vocal about it: (I know that the BNP and Nick Griffin are also gay bashers, for example).. however they aren't as vocal these days due to the fact they'd get banned as a political party.. Suxx 21:23, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Heh.
Yeah, I've watched A LOT of so-called "kid's stuff" - both as an actual kid and now.. guess I have too much spare time (not that I care much): BFG was a cool movie, though not many seem to acknowledge it these days.. had catchy songs and stayed faithful to the book (at least a lot more than modern movies do): plus traditional animation alwas seems better to me than the CGI stuff they have now Suxx 21:37, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

hah, that song - funny when it first came out some parents were all "this is too rude for kids" yet these days its nothing.. what I liked about BFG and the older cartoons (or movies in general) was they allowed dark scenes and even some "edgey" stuff whilst still providing a happy ending of sorts.. I honestly think a lot of people in the "modern" audiences wouldn't understand the idea of that kind of story - which is really sad.. hopefully they won't remake BFG (there was a rumor of it being made in 3D, which I hope is not true) Suxx 21:49, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

aye matey, modern Hollywood blows harder than the Great White Whale she does - hopefully the scurvy dogs' ship will sink before it sets sails however.. and yes my pirate voice is crap.. though I think since they released a HORRIBLE Smurfs movie anything is possible. Suxx 21:54, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

never went to see it, the movie poster having Papa Smurf yelling "where the smurf are we?" kind of made me think - yeah, this film is going to be cheap, nasty and annoying.. nope Suxx 22:06, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't going to risk adding an alignment to the page, I couldn't pass judgement since I never watched/read it.. so kind of glad you added an alignment to him: I might have to watch it or at least see if I can find the original graphic novel Suxx 22:40, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Palpatine is Neutral Evil because ultimately he is willing to break his own laws / codes when it is suitable to do so, for example when Darth Vader was defeated by Luke Palpatine was quite happy to let Luke kill him.. however Luke would not do so, thus Palpatine decided to attack.. in the end Palpatine was always about one thing: himself.. he would backstab anyone who got in his way and unlike Darth Vader he had no real code (of course everyone views characters differently so what I see as Neutral Evil you may well see as Lawful Evil) Suxx 22:43, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

well - he's listed as Neutral Evil on a lot of websites, which also probably fuels the argument: of course this is a debate no one can really win.. even Star Wars fans would argue over it.. one thing we can at least agree on is that Darth Vader is definitely Lawful Evil (perhaps Lawful Neutral, if you want to humanize him a little) - as for Palpatine.. I guess that's an alignment people are going to argue on for a while Suxx 22:49, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

also, apologizes for the spam here but this link may be useful http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeutralEvil - listed under Films (he's the first one on the list) - of course, this doesn't necessarily make it fact: just what they view on the character Suxx 22:52, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, personally I like Neutral Evil characters more as they upright stick their fingers up at both order and chaos.. they just want to get stuff done and don't care how it is done Suxx 22:57, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, I guess so - if it makes sense.. what I tend to do is use the currently accepted "alignment" of characters.. for example Joker as Chaotic Evil, when some of the older versions were more Chaotic Neutral: ultimately though the call is yours Suxx 23:40, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

problem with Kane, like you've stated, is that most wrestlers vary their acts throughout their careers thus someone who was once chaotic evil may suddenly become chaotic good or something.. maybe a fairer alignment for ALL wrestlers is "true neutral".. as for the sources, yeah.. I'm guilty of looking at sources on websites sometimes and taking them as facts without double-checking, I should correct that habit for the wiki but old habits die hard. Suxx 00:05, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

not really, my nephew watches it and I get a very brief exposure to it as a result.. which means I probably should of left Kane alone or watched more of it to get a clearer picture: don't normally like touching articles on subjects I don't know about (for reasons you've highlighted: false information.. which I hate to add cause there is already a lot of false information on this wiki) Suxx 00:14, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Q was so different from other Star Trek "enemies" - at first he seemed like an omnipotent troll but then you started to see some sense in his chaos.. I still liked how despite his vast power meant he could easily show people what was going on he instead wanted them to figure it out for themselves, "helping" them by causing all these weird things to happen.. plus when he started a bidding war just because he could.. or complained about being punched "Picard never hit me!" Suxx 01:42, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

You're Pazuzu? that must be rather awkward at times.. random stranger "hi", Pazuzu: "" - random stranger: "something I said?" Suxx 02:56, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

What?
What's wrong now?Moleman 9000  03:18, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I do have anger problems and am prone to swearing profusely when enraged. But that guy IS an idiot. Moleman 9000  03:21, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Okay
I might indeed read the Redwall series some day.

Still, I might not follow each series mentioned here but I know most of our categories, I read the article and I do some basic research before editing, thank you very much. I can assure you that when I remove a category from a page, it is not out of spite but for a good reason; like Acnologia not being an "Evil Teacher" for instance. Since Redwall consists in many distinct stories with distinct villains rather than an ongoing story, following our own definitions there is no "Big Bad" in it. And without "Big Bad" there cannot be a "Bigger Bad". Cluny the Scourge is indeed one of the most notable primary antagonist of the series, I grant you that, but unless proven otherwise, in which case I would immediately step down with apologies, not a "Bigger Bad".

Also, if I can make a suggestion myself: Please, try to sound less condescending in your messages.

Thanks in advance. Balthus Dire 18:46, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

You are right, "primary antagonist" basically means "big bad". The problem is that on this wiki we label as "Big Bads" the primary antagonist of a series as a whole (when there is one). We do this mostly to avoid making the category spiral out of control with massive flooding. It is all explained in the "Big Bad" article. There was a categorie named "Antagonists", then another named "Main Villains" designed to repertoriate every "primary antagonist" but they were both deemed unneccessary and deleted by admins.

As a precision, I did not write the "Big Bad" article, nor did I delete the two categories, I am just trying my best to follow the guidelines they describe. Balthus Dire 19:21, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

My apologies
Okay I owe you an apology. I know I must get on your nerves to edit your pages like this and I am sorry for this, let me assure you that this is absolutely NOT against you in any manner.

The problem is that this wiki is facing countless problems with categories, the worst of all being an neverending flood of pages added to categories that do not correspond; most often to absurd levels. We admins struggle very hard to keep categories with articles that follow the description on the category page. And I must admit that I am very strict about it. But spend two years with 2/3 of your edits dealing with this problem, and I can bet that any patience would grow thinnier.

Anyways, I trust your skills as a wiki user, and that's why I no longer edit the text of your pages and explain the reasons of my edits. However, having been appointed admin, my role is to enforce the rules and protecting categories is among them. You know better than me who could be "Wizard" and "Sorcerer" among the Fairy Tails villains I will never deny it. However, I simply cannot let an article in both categories, since they are incompatible. Also, I cannot let a living character in the category "Dark Magic", which is a sub-category for "Villainous tools and other items." For instance, I left Zeref's demon in it since it was created through Dark Magic. Finally and we have discussed about it, there can be only one "Big Bad" for each series.

Once again, I am sorry if I offended you. As I told you, when I remove a category for a page, it is for a good reason and I never do so without reading the category definition to be sure that the page does not match beforehand. And when I make a mistake, I correct it. I reapet, this is not against you personally, I have removed articles from the category page of "Dark Magic" and it happened that your articles were in it but there were many others. I really wish I will no longer have to remove category from your articles any more but you have to understand that categories are a really complicated matter.

I hope I explained my case well enough. Once against this is not against you. Balthus Dire 10:08, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for answering this late. Since villains from The Silmarillion are listed under Lord of the Rings villains, it is fair to assume that all villains from its extended universe would fit. Balthus Dire 14:31, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Just to warn you, the category "Villains with Uncontrolable Anger" has been deleted quite some time ago. It seems that I am once again forced to remove a category from one of your pages, so I prefer to tell you so beforehand. You seen, among the many problems that make gestion of categories so aggravating is that when a category is deleted, it remains on our wiki until all its entries are removed. This leads well-meaning users to think that they are still valid and add new entries. I am working on deleting this category for good, which leads me once again to trouble your work. Once again I apologize for messing with your work. Balthus Dire 14:31, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

LOL..
I am so hopelessly clueless on manga and anime that I haven't even seen Fist of The North Star (yes, I should be ashamed..) - still got a chuckle if only for the fact I had no idea what was going on.. though I won't lie: I got pissed when I saw that user had just randomly blanked everything about "demonic grin" on the page - nothing is more annoying to me than people who just blank stuff and then claim "oh, I didn't like the content" or something: if it's broke, fix it.. if it's really bad get someone to delete it.. anyways, that's my rant done Suxx 20:08, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

but if we allow one troll to slip through the system it may lay eggs and infect more articles! actually, I tend not to care too much - I guess blanking is the one exception because it is really stupid when done purely to try and prove you are better or something when all it really does is make you look like, well, a blanker Suxx 20:23, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Frieza is THE WORST (meaning the best)
What do you mean he's a horrible choice? Frieza made a BUSINESS out of destroying planets. How much worse can you possibly get than that? I'll bet he'd wipe the floor with Griffith or whatever his name is, I've never even heard of him. Plus, Dragon Ball is by far and without question the most important anime out there, so it only makes sense that we should use the most notable villain from it to represent the genre.Moleman 9000  22:44, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

By "Broad" I meant encompassing all mediums and genres. The current banner has THREE Marvel villains and no anime villains. I tried to put one villain for each major medium, and chose the most deserving ones to represent each. I didn't say they were all supposed to be particularly dark, only one of them I said should be an obscure Complete Monster, and I certainly did not say that it was supposed to expose obscure villains in general.

Also, your opinion that Berserk is the best is no more valid than mine that DB is the best. Moleman 9000  22:55, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

The End (series)
I've just found out today that The End is a novel. Turns out it was just a not well-known online series. I know, a mindblower. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 00:59, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

When I say it doesn't exist, I literally mean it does not exist outside of this wiki. It's not even fan fiction.Moleman 9000  01:15, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Trust me, there is nothing like that in A Series of Unfortunate Events. What we have here is simply a troll making shit up, plain and simple. Moleman 9000  01:20, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

I C WAT U DID THERE
Suxx 02:01, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Reply
by putting that "Successful Troll Was Successful" image on the talkpage he was giving the troll recognition, much as we are doing by discussing the matter - however you asked for evidence and that is what I gave: giving the troll attention often encourages said troll to continue, since it was a first time offence I gave a light ban Queen Misery 02:45, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

ahem, before you start demanding things and getting offended read what said - I was refering to the talkpage of the deleted page "Jews" and the troll is question was the creator of that page: you were never called a troll so do not be so quick to jump on the offense. the picture he added to the talkpage on "Jews" was why he was blocked - for 1 week, for encouraging the creator of that page to continue. Queen Misery 02:52, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Another Reply
Well I know that we admin can appear as brainless dictators some times, but unfortunately, to enforce the rules, we sometimes have to be harsh and run the risk of not being liked. The problem is that it was not a decision made by a single stupid admin but a decision made by several admins, on this discussion. (Feel free to read the comment and to participate.)

To deal with YET ANOTHER aspect of the neverending plague that is category abuse, namely the hundreds of needless categories; we decided to fix a strict minimum of pages and delete all categories wilth less entries. Since categories are meant for about hundreds of pages or at least several dozens, the minimum was set at 20. The category "Song of Ice and Fire Villains" was likely deleted because it had not enough entries, I can assure you that it was not the only one, far from it. I know this seems unfair, but as corny as it sounds the categories problem is so huge that we were forced to take drastic measures.

Since A Song of Ice and Fire is an important series it might very well have more that 20 villains, if that's the case, the best thing to do is to write the 20 articles and then recreate the category. If the category was deleted for another reason, the best would be to discuss with the admin who deleted it in the first place. As for articles whose name is badly written, the article can be renamed.

Hope it helped. Balthus Dire 11:48, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

My mistake really.

You see, I have spend the last two days in cleansing the wiki of deleted categories, "Sith" for instance, since we agreed with all admins that two categories for one series was redundant and that in this case "Star Wars Villains" was enough. In countless articles I have edited, I have seen absurd categories that did not correspond the slightest to their pages, and I tend to remove every category which does not correspond to what is written in the article. Categories being in some ways a summary of the whole article.

After dealing with this for the whole day, I must admit that it got on my nerves and in my weariness I might very well have failed to notice that it was under construction. In that case I apologize profusely and give you my blessing to add the categories to the list where they belong. Sorry again. Balthus Dire 19:34, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Feeder
I had no idea adding a random image counted as a bannable offense on this wiki - I just did it because the page was pretty damn funny (even if it was a troll).. usually one gets a warning before being blocked but *shrugs* at least the block was shortened.. Suxx 15:42, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

your userpage is pretty informative (the exact opposite of mine) - also lol at the "Gay Bashing" category, you nasty homophobe you.. talking of which I need to add Chaotic Evil to my user page since that's pretty much how I view myself online.. not so much "evil" as in "I don't give a crap" half the time in regards to if people like what I do or not (though I will apologize on the rare occassions I go too far) Suxx 15:49, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Hi
I suppose you right that ResonX has more authority than me for those reasons.DrNefarious 13:52, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Reply
The person that added the "Remus Lupin (Werewolf)" article is a retarded troll. Note that the article itself didn't even mention Lupin outside of the title and was just copied from the Harry Potter Wiki's article on Werewolves. That idiot has been blocked now (again). Moleman 9000  14:53, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

What's Wikiasses? Moleman 9000  15:43, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, what is "Wikiassssssssssss"? Moleman 9000  16:06, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia? NO. I HATE Wikipedia and all that it stands for. I say let it die! Let it die! Let it die! Let it shrivel up and dry! Moleman 9000  16:10, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia explanation
Wikipedia is exclusive, oppressive, belittling, archaic and hypocritical. This wiki, on the other hand, is fair and inclusive. Moleman 9000  16:14, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

You said Wikipedia. There's only one Wikipedia. Moleman 9000  16:21, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

You idiot
Wikipedia is one specific site. The term for all sites like this is "wiki", not "wikipedia". <font color="Green">Moleman 9000  16:26, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong. Wikipedia is just that one site. Wiki is the name of the software used to make these sites, not wikipedia. <font color="Green">Moleman 9000  16:31, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

You didn't even say which wikis you wanted help with. <font color="Green">Moleman 9000  16:02, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Banning the Stupid A$$hole
Hey Ultimate Low of Kaitlyn, I got your message and I found this god-awful nimrod named EvilJeff45 is screwin' up the Slim Shady page that is still not complete. I didn't block that dummy because I don't know how, but I gave that little punk bitch a fair warning by telling to stop & back off. I hate it when people screw $**t up. It's bull$**t. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 23:10, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I don't how to block, honestly. I never done it before, ever. Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 23:36, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah, ask Moleman 9000 for help. He should back up & take care of that annoying dumb-f**k. - Best regards B1b1lkal Don't cha judge me! 23:37, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

IRC
Hey, could you do me a huge favor and meet me on the IRC in the next hour? I think there's been a misunderstanding and I just wanted to apologize for something. I need to get offline soon, but I'll be on SWFanon IRC until then. Go here and type #SWFanon for the channel. Thank you. The Gooch 03:09, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Answering
If you ask me, "Impel Down" counts as an Evil Hideout, all the more now that the World Government displays increasingly more blatant corruption and malevolence. It would need the categories "Anti Villains" and perhaps even "Anti Heroes" though, since like you pointed out, its warders are making their jobs to protect the word from awful criminals.

I would advise you to go with caution if you want to write this article though, as Magellan, and even Hannyabal if my memory serves me well, were added to this wiki, perhaps more than once and deleted on the ground of just doing their jobs and not purposely seeking harm in malevolent ways. I for one would say that they count as "Anti Villains" but this is a tricky debate. Balthus Dire 21:34, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Jesus -.-
Oh my i do apologize for trampling over your magnificent ego, i didnt realize i was waste of your time, im so sorry! Oh and next time try to use words that doesnt make you sound like a passive aggressive mental patient with severe tourettes syndrome... Madda fakka :P

Derp
It's just that when i see something i don't understand i have to ask what the author's intention was (It's kind of a curse really) And i wasnt sure wether the ar-ti-cl-e (Did i say it right?) fitted this site, but your amazing charisma made me re-think my position, thank you "dude who's name i won't bother to learn" you have saved my life :D

Pretty Please :3
You want know why i don't sign my posts? Because i know it pisses you off, oh yeah i can feel you anger!!! Mmm delicious! I might be stupid but you have to be at least as stupid seeing how we are still having this conversation... :D Please rage some more Pleeeeeeease :3

Really? Your gonna block me for disagreeing with you? Well someone's got a god complex! What is the point you know im just gonna keep coming back! Plus i havent even touched your profile site even though i can! I won't so don't worry! Even trolls have standards! ;)

Really? Your gonna block me just because im disagreeing with you? Well someone has a god complex! Whats the point you know ill just keep coming back! Plus i havent even touched your profile which i can! I wont though! Even trolls have standards ;)

Joining Skippy Shorts Wiki
Can you please go to Skippy Shorts Wiki and improve it and all articles there if you can? Please! This wiki needs a LOT of help! -- TheSitcomLover 8:54pm, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

I was just looking for something to edit and i came across Azuma and i thought HEY i got a great picture of him somewhere and... yeah...

Ban Request
Or w/e what? You're not only one who's annoyed & pissed off as hell, dude! I'm up to my a$$ with too much schedule including my own right now. Now TheSitcomLover is makin' this a bit f**kin difficult & I'm tired already because I got a goddamn headache. I already help out the damn Skippy Shorts wiki a little last night be fore I bail outta there in a hurry. Ask the user Queen Misery on bannin' him. Right now, I'd gotta go. I got stuff I gotta take of. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 17:20, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. He's spamming everybody with the exact same message. That is, User:TheSitcomLover is. <font color="Green">Moleman 9000  17:40, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

You see? He gets its. User:TheSitcomLover is like askin' too much. But we ask so little, & said enough just to make this guy understand our sincere condolences, & our little hepl to him. Not to mention our simple & proper refusal of him & that same plea for help on the Skippy Shorts stuff. - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 19:10, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Reply
Orochimaru was listed as an example on the original page. <font color="Green">Moleman 9000'' 19:18, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Administrator
What are you talking about? I'm not admin, I'm just a contributor for Christ's sakes. I should've been taken the job that was offered me and I'd take credit for, but I can't. I'm just fine the way I am, ok? - Best regards B1bl1kal Don't cha judge me! 19:20, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

The Other
would the Other be considered "Ancient Ones" as they are a race of described in the books "ancient" beings that once engulfed the world 8,000 years prior (before Brandon the Builder stopped them using either obsidient or vylarian steel i forget) and are now considered myth or legend but in A Song of Ice and Fire\s A Game of Thrones POV prologue it states they have returned from beyond The Wall witnessed by several members of the Night's Watch and will become a major point during The Winds of Winter and probably A Dream of SpringUltimate Law of Kaitlyn 03:53, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

I