Thread:LostGod2000/@comment-27818776-20140901142846/@comment-1672596-20140902214207

Aesop's Feast wrote: Weedle McHairybug wrote: First of all, I never said the German version redeemed him (actually, his fate was slightly closer to the original book in that version as Quasimodo played a huge role in his death). I only said the English version redeemed him.

And second of all, most CMs don't even fear punishment at all, much less divine punishment from a God who most certainly will enjoy and relish in punishing people just as much as he loves his creation. Joker most certainly didn't, neither did Kefka Palazzo (heck, when he was imprisoned by Emperor Gestahl, he just ended up bored out of his gourd of being placed in a cell), nor did Dr. Weil, or Palpatine, or Voldemort, or any of those guys. Heck, Eric Cartman didn't even consider the possibility of going to hell, so naturally he didn't fear divine punishment. 1. Like what LostGod2000 and many others have said, Frollo from the English musical version and Frollo from the Disney film are two separate entities – they are not the same character – even if the English musical was based on the Disney film. An example: Thanos from the Marvel comic books and Thanos from the Marvel movies based on the comic books are two different characters. Whatever Frollo does in the English musical is completely irrelevant to Disney Frollo.

2. Remorse is the deep 'sorrow, regret and concern expressed for the people  that you have wronged through your actions, not the selfish  fear of divine punishment. Any or all remorse he had for murdering Quasimodo's mother is negated by the fact that he was an Abusive Parent to Quasimodo – that's not genuine remorse. Then we have Hellfire, which would have counted as remorse, but he, once again, negates all remorse by blaming Esmeralda for everything, then attempting to burn her at the stake without batting an eyelid.

Frollo being labelled a Complete Monster does not mean that he's a two-dimensional villain, nor does it mean that you have to stop feeling sorry for him. Ultimately, the CM trope is a matter of mass opinion – that's the reason why there's an entire debate thread dedicated to it on TVTropes. Regarding remorse, when he knows full well that God is all-powerful and all-knowing more importantly (which effectively means he cannot trick God at all), yes, he is indeed remorseful in that instance, as it's completely impossible to be lacking in remorse and fearful for your soul when you're dealing with someone you can't trick at all.

Actually, yes, it DOES mean you have to stop feeling sorry for him. It's in fact why TVTropes specifically stated that Woobie Destroyer of Worlds characters are exempt from the CM status, because they aren't to be played sympathetically at ALL (in other words, feeling sorry for him means he invokes sympathy). And BTW, the definition of sociopaths and psychopaths (who, BTW, are without exception complete monsters) are that they are incapable of character development (heck, TVTropes and several psychologists/sociologists made that very clear), so in other words, yes, if he is to be a complete monster, that automatically means he does have to be two-dimensional. And besides, freely admitting with pride that he is evil and having absolutely no remorse doesn't mean he's two-dimensional. Emperor Palpatine also was a card-carrying villain himself, yet guess what, he turned out to be three-dimensional DESPITE his being pure evil and flat out admitting it with pride (and this isn't even opinion either, even his character section on TVTropes actually noted that he was particularly notable as a card-carrying villain specifically because he turned out to be well-rounded and three dimensional despite being blatant and very well aware about being pure evil). Heck, Mr. Freeze in Arkham Origins clearly had remorse for his actions, yet guess what, he committed them anyways even when Batman pointed out that Nora wouldn't have wanted him to hurt people in the Heart of Ice DLC. Last I checked, he's not a complete monster or remorseless, so Frollo not going about it at all still isn't good enough. Honestly, if Disney intended for him to be as evil as possible, I have a lot more suggestions of how to go about it, like make him a satan worshipper in private, be attracted to Esmerelda because he wanted to bring about the Anti-Christ, or stuff like that. Heck, make him like Phillipe Augustus from Eternal Darkness (who is a Complete Monster by proxy of him being a disguise for Pious Augustus), or heck, even Barthandelus from Final Fantasy XIII (who is actually very similar to Frollo, only that he doesn't even fear or even care about damnation, and committed much more heinous crimes than he did, and actually was formerly on the CM list on TVTropes). Oh, and let me point out that two-dimensional villains are actually very much more scary and, ironically, even more realistic than three dimensional villains. Take Red Skull, for instance: The Red Skull was created to be a cartoonish villain, not even intended to be realistic at all. Guess what, he actually turned out to be very much unintentionally realistic, with some of his actions and nature even having an uncanny similarity to the actions and nature of certain actual Nazi members (notably, SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich and SS-Brigadeführer Walther Schellenberg for his overall exploits, and SS-Oberführer Oskar Dirlewanger for his cruelty, sadism, heck, even to a lesser extent the appearance of his human form).

Also, Kefka Palazzo from Final Fantasy VI and the Dissidia subseries were technically also two separate characters, the latter even being slightly more sympathetic as well, yet guess what? He STILL is a Complete Monster on his article.

BTW, I think we need to get rid of the Complete Monster categories from this wiki. I operate with cold raw facts, so mass opinion doesn't mean a thing to me (besides, mass opinion also supported slaughtering each other during the French Revolution for the people's sake, so I have no trust in mass opinion whatever it may be), and besides which, wikis are supposed to rely on facts, not merely speculation. It may work with TVTropes where they basically don't care about facts, even failing to get rid of blatant errors or actually eliminating edits that put Obama in a bad light, regardless of whether they are in fact true, while they don't have any problems with George W. Bush being bashed. In fact, the wiki would actually be better off if it only relied on pure raw facts rather than mass opinion.