Thread:BeholderofStuff/@comment-2059440-20181104050249/@comment-2059440-20181105173958

look, we need a limit - there's a BIG difference between a bad character versus a flawed hero / anti-hero.

if we add every hero who has a bad origin almost everyone who is not Prince Charming from old-school Disney (aka "pure of heart") would inevitably end up here.

remember that Phoebus in Disney's Hunchback was an accessory to genocide for most of the film, sure he subtly disobeyed orders and disliked Frollo but he nevertheless followed Frollo until near the very end - do we add Phoebus here simply for that? even though he is clearly shown as a good man.. he only openly opposes Frollo after Frollo goes too far.. until then he does Frollo's bidding, albeit reluctantly.

Aladdin is a pickpocket and a rogue, yet his kindheart shows us from the start he is a hero - Robin Hood is an anarcho-criminal but Prince John's regime is far worse.. Gideon from Zootopia is introduced as a bad guy but he truly shows he is flawed and not evil when he apologizes to Judy, same deal with Dudley from Harry Potter - who is introduced as a bad guy but is clearly meant to be shown as a flawed character later on, in contrast with Vernon.. Harry even eventually keeps contact with Dudley etc, showing that Dudley was never truly a "bad guy" (we all do stupid things in the past, short of murder or extreme crimes it shouldn't be held against us forever).

Mister Bean is another example, in his movies he does incredibly selfish and mean-spirited things or reckless acts, yet when he realizes he's harming others more than he is comfortable with he goes to great lengths to fix his mistakes - this is what separates a flawed hero from a "bad guy": the ability to realize they are doing wrong and the willingness to better themselves.

good, on the whole, will realize it does wrong and seek to better itself  : Evil, on the whole, rarely realizes (or cares) that it does wrong and does not seek to better itself (at least not until extreme damage has been done to the setting / others).

a final example is Jimmy from Bully, he does horrible things and is introduced as a thug but unlike a true bad guy he is also clearly shown as the character we, the audience, are meant to stick with and we learn that he has morals and ultimately stands for "good" rather than "bad" (in fact he actively opposes that which he sees as unjust) : this makes him an example of "Good is Not Nice".

not every hero is "pure of heart" Prince Charming, neither is every villain a cacking "Pure Evil" Joker clone.. we need to find a balance or the wiki will be a very messy place.