Thread:Overseer80/@comment-1672596-20131208215055/@comment-1672596-20131209010146

Overseer80 wrote: Weedle McHairybug wrote: Remorse simply means you intensely fear a more powerful person/entity punishing you for doing bad things/disobeying said more powerful entity, and you know you are completely incapable of even landing a scratch on said powerful entity otherwise. If you're the higher person, period, you literally have nothing to fear, hence no remorse. In other words, God Himself IS remorseless in any acts he commits, no matter how contradictory to the 10 Commandments or His own word. Think along the lines of Kefka if you want to get into remorselessness, where he had absolutely no remorse for committing genocide, betraying and murdering even someone higher in rank than him, just because he had godlike powers by that point and at his core enjoyed chaos, destruction, and human suffering (and BTW, Kefka qualified as a Complete Monster, even more than Frollo did). If you have any fear of punishment, ESPECIALLY from someone you are fully aware is more powerful than you and break you like a twig effortlessly, yes, that IS remorse, period. Otherwise, Frollo would have NOT hesitated AT ALL in killing Quasimodo when he had the chance, even cackling at the idea of killing him, and telling the Archbishop that he has no power over him and kills him as well proving how powerless the Archbishop and even God is over him. And selfish, BTW, involves more than just caring solely for your own sake. It's also having a sick, perverse joy in suffering as long as you aren't the one suffering. Joker and Kefka are leagues ahead of Frollo in that category, proven with the former by his backstabbing Gestahl despite the latter being of a far higher rank than him. Heck, look at how The Joker behaves for a good idea of lacking of remorse, as in most incarnations, he literally lacks fear, period (best demonstrated when he got a dose of Fear Toxin from Scarecrow, and is heavily implied with most sources to be the reason why he is a grave threat to Batman and Gotham and the number one in his rogues gallery).

And I remember one person stating TVTropes was incorrect in various areas as well, being too strict and all that. And if he felt guilty that he lusted after Esmerelda, then he is feeling guilty for being evil, because evil = lustful in the Catholic Church (as its one of the seven deadly sins, at least to us mortals). Wow...where to begin? Where to begin?

First off, fearing consequences for your actions does not automatically denote remorse and it does not here. And his lustful feelings (which again he refuses to take responsibilty for) are not remorse either. And again, TV Tropes considers him one, and again, their standards are far, far higher than ours. He is one.

You also need to understand that some CMs have more subtlety than others. Not every CM has to be a fearless, nihilistic, cackling mustache-twirling maniac to qualify. And Frollo is an example of a slightly more subtle CM in that he is a CM who does not see himself that way. But HE DOES NOT FEEL REMORSE. Only fear and a desire to avoid being punished. That's NOT remorse. It's a fear of punishment. They're two different things.

Like I said, he's one, and nothing you say is going to change that, especially since you're outvoted. Perhaps an argument could be made that in the opening sequence he's not one, but even if that (very flimsy) argument held water, he still becomes one in the end BECAUSE HE DOES NOT FEEL REMORSE. Only fear. That's it. And again, he refuses to believe he's capable of any wrongdoing ("It's not my fault. I'm not to blame). If he envisioned several priests saying "Mea Culpa," yes, that does indeed mean that, at least deep down, he is very much aware that what he is doing is wrong and hates himself for it. Remorse is really just an extension of fear limited to a higher power, so yes, fear of punishment and remorse are indeed one and the same. God never mentions having remorse. In fact, even though I'm a devout Catholic and serving God largely out of sheer terror knowing what he's capable of, I'm certain that God is actually laughing at slaughtering any sinners he comes across upon death and takes joy in hurting people especially those who disobey him, truly enjoying himself in hurting people since he literally is the most powerful being in existence, making him even more joyous at hurting people than Satan ever will (and Satan himself is a monster).

And I'm aware of subtleties regarding Complete Monsters (heck, Agent Smith is a good example of a subtle Complete Monster, as well as the Patriots AIs, and I'm saying subtle because the works they came from are a huge philosophical mess of nihilism/moral relativism and a massive mindscrew to get around. Personally, I'd say that everyone in those games are Complete Monsters because of that.), but even among subtleties, Frollo still doesn't qualify. Nonetheless, since I'm outgunned as you pointed out, I don't have a choice but to let you keep him in. I should point out, however, that Scar was removed from the CM category, and a lot of people disagreed with Broly being removed from the Complete Monster category (see Broly's talk page) even with TVTropes.