Thread:Overseer80/@comment-25030828-20140606141700/@comment-15895329-20140606174809

Aesop's Feast wrote: Is there really no official administrator-level debate thread concerning this on this website? Thanks anyway for redirecting me to the edit history.

But I do not think I am entirely convinced:

1. Maybe it's just me, but I find "pathetic" to be a rather subjective adjective, especially when used as a criterion for a supposedly objective category/trope such as Complete Monster – what a person perceives as pathetic may be sympathetic in another's eyes. Besides, the movie does take time to develop his Freudian Excuse to show how deeply it has affected him, which ultimately ties into his motivation for revenge and why he wants to conquer China. The film does attempt to debunk his Freudian excuse, but it's not done in a particularly accusatory tone. In fact, it is played in a tragic manner more than anything. Even then, Shen does pause to reconsider his options along with possible remorse before hardening his heart and continuing his conquest due to I've Come Too Far. I think the only time you can call a Freudian Excuse truly and objectively "pathetic" is only when: a) The excuse is completely detached from reality (e.g. Aliens ate my mom; therefore, I shall kill everyone on this planet to save them from being eaten by aliens) or b) The excuse no longer elicits any emotion from the villain / the excuse has truly turned into a convenient "excuse" and nothing more.

2. His relationship with the Soothsayer doesn't count? She is the only person Shen does not try to harm (physically or emotionally) even though, given a malevolent and vengeful character such as he, he had every right to: Following his twisted logic, the Soothsayer can be said to have single-handedly ruined his life. Even if you discount that, he doesn't seem to be trying to take control of her life like in a dysfunctional, psychopathic/sociopathic/narcissistic relationship – he treats her more like a family member. Then you have the moment where he sets her free. Sure, it can be argued that he was trying to prove her wrong / discarding her after she became useless to him, but since when has she been of use to him? Throughout the movie, the only things she has done is to infuriate him, lecture him, expose his weaknesses to him and trying to subtly steer him away from his dark, evil path. He could have gotten rid of her any time he wanted. And, he could have added in "she's no use to me" just to show the gorilla guard that he wasn't going weak. Also, as she is trying to debunk his Freudian Excuse, he does seem to sincerely consider what she is saying instead of simply lashing out at her about how wrong she is, so I would not say that he is trying to prove her wrong in this aspect. He did seem to have a genuine relationship with the Soothsayer and harboured no selfish intent in setting her free. This should qualify as a Pet the Dog moment.

3. While I am aware that TV Tropes has concluded that Shen is not a Complete Monster, I do not take their word as absolute. Nor am I on an Internet-wide crusade to take down non-CMs because TV Tropes is the metaphorical Bible. I personally do not agree that Shen is a Complete Monster.

I apologise for the Wall of Text, but I really really cannot see why Shen is a CM. Maybe I'm just insane, but please do reconsider. Or maybe we could just agree to differ. It's cool – everyone will have different interpretations of the same character. Thank you once again.

1. Well going by that logic, we would let anyone add whatever they wanted about characters because it's all just "subjective". Except...it isn't. We cannot allow all opinions to hold equal validity here for reasons that I don't think I need to elucidate on. There needs to be more order than that. Otherwise, users could list any villain they wanted as a CM just because the villain was that way in their eyes. But not all opinions are equally valid or invalid.

Continuing from that, let me draw a little comparison for you:

Lotso did evil things and tried to elicit sympathy by claiming that someone in his life (Daisy) didn't love him when she obviously did. He is considered a CM.

Shen did evil things and tried to elicit sympathy by claiming that someone in his life (his parents) didn't love him when they obviously did.

Notice any similarities? Because I do. If one's a CM, then the other is.

As to your claims of when an excuse loses validity, I could say that Shen's excuse has just become exactly that. He uses it to try and elicit sympathy he really doesn't deserve.

Sympathetic is...

Darth Maul: Raised by Palpatine for years

Bane: Grew up and was raised in a prison

Jack from Mass Effect: Grew up and was raised in a torture facility

Doctor Octopus (SM2): Lost his wife, his dream was destroyed, and his arms took control of his damaged mind and corrupted him.

Mr. Freeze: One person he loved was taken from him by a greedy sociopath

Jango Fett: Lost (in order) his parents, his mentor, his clan.

Sympathetic is not:

"My parents didn't love me (even though they clearly did) so that SURELY means I can kill whoeveer I want with homicidal relish, right? Right?"

2. I chalk his interactions with the Soothsayer up to Pragmatic Villainy. He keeps her alive because he values her prophecies, and then discards her when she ceases to be useful. And if you want to insist on his having some measure of honor based on this, I can cite this:

<p class="MsoNormal">http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Virtuously_Vile

<p class="MsoNormal">So...no, I don't see that as a valid Pet the Dog moment. He never displays any real care towards her or concern for her well-being. He just keeps her around because he feels she's useful to him. Once she starts trying to call him out on his villainy and get him stop, he discards her. I'm not seeing much in the way of redeeming qualities there.

<p class="MsoNormal">3. Good to know. I can easily list instances where TV Tropes was wrong about something and in fact the site corrects itself quite often.