they are morally dubious but not necessarily a villain UNLESS they act on it..
many people have horrible ideas or beliefs, including seeing other people as expendable and while not great traits it isn't villainous until they act on those ideas.
for example a person may not value other people's lives and see them as nothing but unless they go out of their way to kill people or put people in a situation where they will die they are not a villain.
dislikeable people are not the same as villainous people.
So I know this is LOOONG overdue but I wanted to thank you for contributing to Syndrome in helping us decide whether or not he counted as a CM. You really helped me get a new perspective cause tbh, even when I stood by him being one, I still had issues officially deciding. While his methods of becoming the only hero were cruel (killing other heroes) his ultimate goal in the end was standard compared to that of the most evil of supervillains as you said: sell inventions so no one would be super is pretty avaerage compared tot hat of say Red Skull. He didn't attempt genocide or terroist attacks or anything like that. The end all goal of his was pretty standard when one thinks about it.
So, I was planning on most likely proposing the biblical incarnation of Satan, pertaining to Christian muthology on the Subpages Cleanup forum. I was reading the reason as to why he should not be brought up again, mostly in part of him being supposedly "Made of Evil," but as it was pointed out, Christian mythology clearly states that Satan chose to be evil out of petty spite, so that would disqualify him from being made of evil. It's mentioned several times in the Bible that angels have free will, though it could be that the reason as to why Satan is seen as being made of evil is that demons are usually depicted as being the physical manifestation of various sins. That, and there is the issue on him not heavily appearing in the texts.
Not really. I'm just mostly proposing him, mostly in part of the Touched By an Angel incarnation of the Devil. No offense to LucidPigeons, I don't really go to him on potential candidates. That, and it's a candidate from a religious subject (I'm not really religious myself, again, apologies for that incident of unintentionally that it was God's fault for evil), so I figured that LucidPigeons wouldn't want to be bothered by that type of candidate. If anything, he'd probably abstain from voting on Satan if I were to propose him.
if you believe God values free will (and most do) then Satan can not be "Made of Evil" as that implies the heretical idea that God (or an Anti-God) forced Satan to be evil.. free will is the reason a truly omnipotent God can still allow evil to exist, because removal of free will would be even worse than the existence of said evil.. free will is God's most sacred law, so sacred that even God will not break it (with some rare exceptions, usually when creation is in dire need of His aid etc).
Even after the Day of Judgement it is hinted that we still have free will, so even in the "next universe" God's most sacred law is kept - being the idea of free will.
If God did not value free will we'd end up with the most extreme of the Maltheist God, in a Maltheist setting the concept of Satan does not apply as God in that setting is the supreme source of all evil (usually with either Lucifer or Jesus as His opponent (Lucifer being seen in a similar light to Titans that stole fire from the Greek gods to aid humanity and Jesus being seen as the Saviour who opposes the Demiurge (the old testament "God").
The exceptions are Islam and Judaism however, in Islam it is specifically stated Iblis asked Allah if he could tempt mankind until Judgement Day and Allah agreed : in Judaism the Devil is usually seen as an angel who still works for God, as a tester of faith.. these two beings can not be seen as CMs but it doesn't mean the Christian version can't count in some versions of the faith.
well, depends really.. if you are talking purely about mainstream Christianity as we see it in the modern era then he can be argued as a CM, since by being a fallen angel he has chosen to use God's gift of free will to do harm, it isn't really God that made Satan evil in that scenario but rather He gave Satan the choice to do as he wished.. thus Satan willingly decided to try and ruin Creation.
the many other branches of monotheism are usually considered their own religions (Islam, Judaism, Universalism etc) - they may follow the Bible in different ways but they can be considered separate theologies that share only one real core principle (worshipping a singular entity, known as God).
In general if Satan is seen as a fallen angel he's usually a stronger contender for CM as that strongly implies free will - this is the view seen in our modern take on mainstream Christianity.
If one follows a belief in Hell (which was a medieval belief, the original texts spoke little of eternal suffering etc) then the idea is Satan is so vile God (a benevolent entity) has to imprison him in that realm, not out of malice but out of necessity as Satan would ruin Creation otherwise.
TLDR: basically the modern (medieval to present) branches of what we view as mainstream Christianity tends towards a CM Satan, the other monotheist religions can be counted as their own faiths (as they should) and thus their take on Satan is not necessary if you are simply questioning the Satan of Christian theology.
nope, the only real thing may be the "universally feared/despised" as Tess says God still loves Satan, yet I think God's love is the sole exception of that rule (since God is meant to be completely all-forgiving, thus He would forgive even CMs (at least in that setting) ) : Satan didn't respond to that very well either, getting rather angry when Tess mentioned that fact so I don't think there is any redeeming factors.. Gabrielle didn't think much on Satan either, believing he relied heavily on his reputation while having innocent people do all the work for him.
nevermind, I realized it was TV Tropes - I don't frequent it sadly.. however I skimmed the forum you talked about and it seems most are agreeing he's a CM by the standards of the show.
One of the biggest factors is this: he's a vastly intelligent, cunning and deliberate antagonist in a series where most of the antagonists are either flawed or misguided in some sense, save for some criminals and so forth who are just violent and nasty.. Satan however is, as I mentioned, like an "anti-angel.. in the show angels are humanity's brethren and caretakers, they are capable of flaws like everyone else but try everything in their power to make life a bit better for everyone.. Satan is humanity's enemy and tormenter, he has flaws but simply blames God instead of himself and tries everyhing in his power to make life miserable, not because he particularly needs the evil to survive or that he "can't understand good" but because he's just a cosmic anomaly : an evil creature in an otherwise very complex creation (where few are "good" or "bad").
Touched By An Angel, eh? not seen much but I can definitely say angels have moral agency in that show.. they can follow God or oppose Him and it is a very "God is good, opposing God leads to ruin" show because it is after all a mix of drama and missionary themes (which is to be expected when dealing with angels).
Satan is the only recurring villain I can think of in that show and yes, he is pretty bad (as you'd expect) : fun little fact you may not of picked up on but the guy he manipulated in the race war was visited by Tess as a child but she had to leave because his abusive father banished her.. Satan kept telling him to "shut up" and Tess remarked he had been listening to "men like that" his whole life.. another little nod to the fact Satan was behind the childhoodn abuse of that character ("don't let him hurt you anymore").
Satan can only stay as long as humans allow him, angels can reveal him but only God can force him to leave (when asked to do so) - until God is asked personally to help Satan *will* try his best to hurt everyone around him.. he knows God's love (hence why he was annoyed when Tess said God loved him) so understands the basics of morality.
Gabrielle says Satan likes using others to do his dirty work and that's true, he is a manipulator and manipulators of that rank tend to understand (or at least be able to fake) complex ethics, he's also at least at "Gabs" level in the angel hierarchy, making him at the very least an archangel, a supernatural being of that rank is truly aware of morals and the "dos" and "don'ts".
"don't think this matters" - while it could simply be a taunt it wouldn't surprise me if that was Satan's way of telling Tess, Gab and even the guy he was manipulating it truly *didn't* matter that he was banished, as he had plenty of other victims to play with and that's his trademark "Pride" kicking in (if he was "made of evil" or dependent on it he'd be a lot more pissed off at losing even one soul).
"God screwed up, free will is a curse" - Satan actually depends on free will to survive, in that way he's kind of mocking God's own design as it allows him to exist : yet God's love in the show is so absolute He will not break his gift, even to a creature as bad as Satan.
Finally (and sorry for being so long here): Tess absolutely loathed him, she almost lost her connection with God.. she had to restrain herself and call him a "creature".. the reason? Tess, as an angel, is immensely empathic and loving.. the exact opposite of a traitor like Satan.
I noticed that last August you commented that too many photos and no information had been put up about Risky Rat. I persoanlly added a whole page of info on the character, but it seems that he hasn't got a linked page and you only get to his photos through Google.
Can you please advise me on how to give him an actual, accessible page of his own?