Loading editor
  • Please vote for both or one of the 2 transparent png pictures of the infobox of Kronika the Keeper of Time (including the Lady Kronika-removebg.png picture under the infobox's secondary line named "Crowned" as I personally & honestly recommend).

      Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
  • I still strongly belive that Bansai is equally heinous(or worse) than Manfred. For instance, he affected way more villains than Manfred did, if Bansai didn't do his actions, Manfred would be nothing. So, Bansai's definitively Manfred's catalyst.

    Other thing, he didn't only wanted to kill the president, but also his own ally Ryōken. If it isn't enough he also was responsible of Souta's abuse for being a witness(Though, Mari Miwa was the abuser).

    And maybe indirectly, but still twisted his son with his own truths and wanted him to belive that he was the best, only at the end, to be broken.

    These are my points from what's in-canon.

    I hope this helps.

    Note: This is NOT TvTropes

      Loading editor
    • Thank you for the message! That is your opinion and I fully respect that. But my opinion on Bansai not counting still holds up because

      a) the murder he commits isn't because of petty and personal revenge like Von Karma's

      b) his abuse of Yumihiko isn't nearly as monstrous as how Von Karma treated Miles and even Bansai didn't frame his son for murder

      c) the black market auctions he held didn't directly put anyone's life in danger whereas Von Karma used every dirty tactic for 40 years to get all guilty verdicts (meaning that he was responsible for countless death sentences)

      d) his involvement in the SS-5 incident was done with three people and his role in making Sota the Big Bad of the entire game was minimal (it was mostly because of his own father disowning him)

      e) giving Von Karma his one and only penalty might have been the catalyst of the entire series but he it was Von Karma himself who picked up from there on because of his own perfectionism. That's like saying Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish would count because he kickstarted the entire war, even though people like Renly and Stannis (who can't count) kept the war going, despite knowing that it would kill thousands of people.

      All in all, I just don't think he counts in terms of heinousness. And in a series that already has 6 monsters (Von Karma is a corrupt prosecutor and an obsessive perfectionist, Dahlia is a heartless serial killer of men, Kristoph is an egotistical lawyer, Alba is a leader of an international smuggling ring, Phantom is a sociopathic spy and Ga'ran is a tyrannical dictator), Bansai doesn't even stand that unique when compared to the rest.

      And yes, I know that this isn't TV Tropes but I've heard many people claiming here that Villains Wiki stand by TV Tropes's policies when it comes to purely evil villains. That being said, Engarde and White were both cut recently because of TV Tropes.

        Loading editor
    • Well, it's your opinion and I also respect it.

      But let's see how things goes. Even if not as heinous as Von Karma, atleast he's as heinous or worse than Dahlia, since Dahlia affected less people, and Bansai was also indirectly Dahlia's catalyst(That was actually Morgan who is actually affected by Bansai). It's like a chain of events.

      Good morning.

        Loading editor
    • It's just the catalyst part that bothers me in the end. Sure, Bansai giving Von Karma his one and only penalty was done because of his dickish attitude (not wanting to cast any suspision on himself despite forging the evidence himself), but any other than Von Karma would have just overlooked it as a simple mistake. Yutaka Kazami (who can't count) is an even greater scope of a villain since his murder of Isaac Dover kickstarted the entire series. There is a border where the chain of events doesn't hold up anymore. Someone like Kazami can't be blamed for what Blaise did to Von Karma and what Von Karma did to the Edgeworths. In the same vein, I think that the actions of Von Karma and Dahlia can't be blamed on Bansai because of the chain of events. The idea of a purely evil villain is to surpass every possible excuse they have for their actions. Von Karma getting his perfect record spoiled didn't justify his vendetta towards Gregory even though Bansai gave him a penalty for the wrong reasons. Similarly, Dahlia's parental abandonment didn't justify how he murdered his stepsister and two boyfriends among others. Both Von Karma and Dahlia affected DIRECTLY more lives than Bansai himself. And taking someone's life directly is way worse than indirectly.

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
  • Why add "Complete Monster" to the Master's catagories?

      Loading editor
  • Please don't plagiarize pages from the Ace Attorney Wiki. This is a warning.

      Loading editor
See archived talk page
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.