I ask Jester if he knows people who know much about the Pure Good category, and he says you do. Because I always ask him, if he thinks my own characters would count as Pure Evil or not, so I wanted to do the same with the characters I think are Pure Good. By the way, I'm a story writer, so yeah.
I would have to know your standard. But the standards I use are thusly.
1. Incorruptible - at least of their own free-will, mind-control does not count. They reject doing harm to others despite any benefits such harm would offer them, no smooth talking devil can dissuade them.
2. Pacifist (At-least partial) - Character does not do harm, or at least lethal harm to others. Any violence done is either in self-defense or defense of others, and even then, no lethal levels of harm are used.
3. Selfless - While character may occasionally be vain/act in their own best intersts, it is never at the cost of others, character will always put the needs of others above their own.
4. Crisis of Faith - If character is confronted with anything that violates the above, such as via-a trolley problem (Would you kill one person intentionally to save 6 otherwised doomed to die or doom 6 to die via negligence in order to keep your hands clean), Mind-control, Black-mail or other can't be helped circumstances that force them to violate qualifiers 1-3 against their intentions, the party can not shrug it off and must experience a serious crisis of faith.
See Aang, trying to accept he may have to violate his personal philosophy to kill someone in order to prevent the person from destroying whole nations, Ryou Bakura suffering night terrors when he remembers the spirit making him kill people and going as far to try to kill himself rather than be made to hurt people again, Yuna not so much as blinking at the prospect of sacrificing herself but completely giving up the theological part of her psyche' rather than taking even one of her friends with her in said ritual.
I understand. Thank you for telling me all that information. I mean, I could do it myself, and look which one of my heroes would likely count and which not, but I want to ask a professional. And for me, it's harder to tell if a hero is Pure Good instead of telling if a villain is Pure Evil. Also the fact that Pure Good heroes can have flaws but not heavy ones.
But are "normal people" who are still counted as heroes even if they don't do much in the story, count as Pure Good if they are very kind and friendly without something negative? Because many on Heroes Wiki are counting even if they are not that important or don't do that much heroic action. But that could be category abuse again, because that is very common on Heroes Wiki. And I also think, it's a title not every hero deservses and just the best of the best, such as only the most heinous villains count as Pure Evil. And too many heroes from just one franchise count as Pure Good. I think it was changed, that they must do something that crosses the "Goodness Standard" and is standing out in heroic deeds in comparisson to others, am I right?
Sadly yes. I frequently need to not only prune the category, but take down whole pages of characters who don't have any agency in the story. People like Bakura at least go through serious risks to their self if only to warn others of impending danger, or Hestia engaging in next to no adventures but still maintaining a standard for their world. But say Keiko from Yu Yu Hakusho, is just a love-interest, she is good, but saves no one, offers no support passed main-character's social life. Merry and Pippin do not do much in the Lord of the Rings, but they at-least are willing to, so their lack of action is only due to the set-up of the story. In He-Man The Sorceress just sits around in a castle all day and talks to people in their head, but at-least her butt being firmly planted in said castle keeps the world turning.
If you see anyone who violates these bare minimum of standards of agency in a story - let's call it the Bakura/Keiko line - I encourage you to not only take them off the Pure of Heart category, but put on the Candidate for Deletion category.
So if I understand right, they don't necessairly need to be fighters but must act and support heroic deeds, right?
For example, I have two characters in one of my stories which I consider Pure Good. The first one is the main protagonist, a detective who does everything she can to make the world a better place, she is not really a fighter (physically) but that doesn't mean she don't do heroic and pure things. She has empathy for many strangers who are in trouble and does everything to help them, she helps her friends and even forgives the murderer of her parents. The other one is her boyfriend, who was a misthreated soul because he was smart and knows much about technics. He again, is not a fighter, but a computer and hacker specialist, who helps everyone he can.
So, there is one question again, because it's a thing I somehow never really see in movies or other media or that I read in Heroes Wiki. Can a Pure Good Hero also be a "Heroic Criminal"? I mean not like "greatly illegal stuff" but something different. Let me explain. In the story with the detective, I planned a part where both of them are helping the best friend of the detective. They want to help her with deleting the crime list of her in the police data. They first refused to do it because it's illegal but they then did it because it's their best friend and they know she is not really an criminal. So would that be an heavy corrupting quality? Because Jester said something like, a Pure Good hero can do something criminal but they are pushed into it and don't like it. I think that's the case here in my story.
Also I just deleted two characters from one of my stories from my own "Pure Good list" because even if they seem pure good (which some heroes like Spongebob do but aren't) they aren't it. Because the first killed the villains and not only in self defense and is very aggressive in nature and the other, despite not killing the villains, giving one a fate worse than death out of revenge because he killed his love interest. So yeah....not Pure Good.
A worthwhile question, one I had pondered myself, but the answer is yes. First of all Aerith has broken out of jail, she is still Pure of heart, because she was imprisoned by a corrupt organization solely to do research on her, then we Friar Tuck, who aids and abides known criminals do they can continue to help the poor, And lets not forget we have the character of Joshua Joseph, AKA Jesus, who destroyed Temple property to make a point about money lending on temple grounds, he is still considered Pure of Heart. Breaking Corrupt/Harmful/Oppressive laws does not affect a person’s purity of heart, as the person making those laws may be making them solely to do evil.
And good call, even if a character seems Pure of Heartat first, later character development might reveal they can be corrupted/give into excessive violence under the right circumstances.
Or Captain America from the MCU who broke the law to do heroic things, help his best friend Bucky and doesn't agree with the Sokovia agreement. He broke it because of wanting to continue his heroic deeds, what he thinks is the best of everyone.
And I have a hero that I wanted to be Pure Good but also complex, and that is very hard to write. So I have an idea for a scene, I wanted you to ask if he still would count or not anymore. He is a hero who never gives up and wants to help the entire universe and make it a better and safer place. But sometimes, he hates himself and doesn't think he is a good leader for his team. After he and his team wanted to stop a villain to destroy a planet, he makes a masterplan. But his love interest is arrange some changes, he don't want to do because he is scared it will fail and is too risky. Then, his plan fails and the villain succeeds in destroying the planet, much to everyones shock. After that, his love interest is really disappointed and heartbroken because her plan would have worked, so he leaves him and the team. After that, he cries most of the time because he lost everything and blames himself for everything that happened, also having most of the time nightmares of the catastrophe. So would he still be Pure Good or not anymore because he was too scared it wouldn't work and still used his plan?
That falls into the Trolley problem - people die one, way, people die another. Nothing there seems to conflict with Pure of Heart. Crisis of faith, accounted for as well. Of-course I do not know said character's stance on violence/lethal force, but just from what you have shared there, nothing conflicts with the standards.
Can I ask you for your opinion, if my own villains in my stories would qualify as Pure Evil? I write stories and would like to know if people would think the same as I do or see it different, if villains of my stories would count. I will start with my sci-fi fantasy story, one of my biggest stories, who has a really high heinous standard and where I don't even know if the six I think would count, would really count. So let's begin:
1. A being of pure light who is often called a "demon. He has a black humor and loves to see people suffer. Before 400 years he caused havoc and destruction in the whole universe, commited multiple genocides and destroyed planets, until he was outcasted and imprisoned into an "prison dimension" by the magician mentor master. But after 400 years he was able to escape because of a omnicient being known as the "Mastermind". He wanted to use the demons energy to rule the universe with him. He thought they would be good partners. The demon then goes on a spree killing and kills every magician in the universe except the protagonist and because of that, he has all his powers back. He betrays Mastermind and kills him. When he is fighting the protagonist on another planet, he noticed that he is still too weak and the protagonist could beat him. So he uses his powers to throw an entire planet, with 500+ life forms on it, at the protagonist. The protagonist can save himself but both planets collide and are completely destroyed, with all life on it too. When he gets his full powers back, he turns the earth into a hellish place and causes chaos and changes the physics. So many people are turned into cripple monsters or their spinal columns are gone which causes them to be paralyzed and in horrendous pain and suffering. He noticed that he wants more power and uses the girlfriend of the protagonist as a "living battery". He puts her in a black matter crystal what causes her to feel emense pain and even deforms her a little bit (what is changed when she's rescued). He wanted to rewrite the whole universe but learns that his powers aren't fully complete yet and the protagonist is the only one who knows to speed the process. So he captures him, tortures him with his laser beams and when that did't helped, he blackmailed the protagonist to kill his little niece, what he nearly did.
2. The grandmother of the protagonist. She was formely on the good side and a magician too, but she retired. When they finally met for the first time, she seems like a lovely and kind woman, but that's just her facade. In truth she is a psychopathic monster. Her grandson and his friends always wondered why she looks still so young even if she is hundreds of years old, but then thought it was because of her immortality. But later it is revealed that she would have died of age (still +100 years more than a normal human) but was feeding on the youth of children, in gruesomely absorbs their energie and flesh. She also killed her own daughter, the mother of the protagonist, so she also has her youth and energy, and it was effective because it was her own flesh and blood. That causes all the mental pain and suffering, he and his father had because of their loss. She connected herself already to a few planets and slowly sucked them dry of all life energy so she could become immortal and never dies. Her endgoal was it, to connect herself to all planets in the universe and dry them out of life energy, what also would cause every species and race, and her own grandson, being extinct.
3. A very intelligent scientist and maybe one of the most smartest beings in the universe. He started out as a apprentice from a universal famous scientist, who is also one of the main characters of the story. First he was a real hero and helped the humanity with his mechanics and technology. But then he became more and more arrogant and selfish and thought he would be the most important human and that he stays over everyone else. So he hurted and experimented on people, but was stopped and outcasted in another dimension by his mentor. After a few years, he came back stronger. He first injured his mentor heavily and wanted to see him suffer. When his adoptive daughter wanted to help him, the scientist strangled her near to death in front of the mentors eyes. But he was stopped by the protagonist. He then planned to build a bomb who would set free gas on the entire earth, so humanity would go extinct, and he can rule over earth and rebuild everything how he wants it. He enslaved the smartest scientists on the earth and forced them to build this bomb. After they were done, he tested it on them, which causes them to slowly suffocate, while he sadistically grins and his assistent shocked. The assistent then wants to put reason in his head but then he tries to kill her too, what causes her to help the heroes.
4. An alien who was experimented on and mutated because of the first bigger bad villain of this story, to be his super-soldier. But the alien started his own free will and later betrayed his master. He is the big bad of the story. He build his own army and imperium and wanted to conquer the universe. He first started to destroy an entire planet and the civilazation on it because they were a superior species in the universe, what was also the home planet of one of the protagonists. He wanted to become more powerful and reach his "ultimate form" and also wanted to create a army of super-soldiers. So he experimented on his own people and many different other species and races, including children and infants. Many of the experiments failed what causes the subjects to often die a horrible death. When he knew how to become more and powerful, he stabbed people with his sting and slowly sucked out their whole blood, until they become hollow corpses. After the protagonists failed to protect an innocent and loveable teenager from him, he also got sucked out and killed by him, and screamed while he does that. After the alien reached his full form, he fights the protagonist and breaks his back and leaves him to die. But he was rescued, but still feeled imense pain and suffering.
5. An silver energy being and the second bigger bad/main villain of the story. He is the most strongest and powerful being in the entire multiverse. He is even so powerful that he needs clothing and gaunlets to hold his powers a little back or he would die too because of the pressure of his powers. He is kinda a more flat and simple character. He was created by "god" to be a guardian of the multiverse but he refused and didn't saw the sense in the existence "god" created. So he went on a killing spree across the universe that had a great impact. He destroyed over three million different universes, dimensions and parallel worlds. When he wants to destroy the "main universe", the hero team tries to stop him but have no chance and nearly died because of that. They only succeed in stealing his gaunlets so he can't use his full powers. But still, he is able to destroy half of the universe including earth. The heroes are able to escape but most of earth's population and also from half of the universe are erased. In the second fight, he kills many of the main characters and tries to get his gaunlets back and if he would he would destroy everything in the existence.
6. A very aggressive and sadistic crime lord. He was known for starting an massacre in an entire police station what killed many police officers. Also killed an police dog in a brutal way. In his childhood, he worked an special poison, he could produce because of his abbilities. He tested the poison on his own mother. That causes to activate all the pain reflectors in her body and causes her to feel the worst pain you could imagine. Later her skin melted and she died a horrendous and most disturbing death. In his adulthood, he worked again on his poison, to made it into a poison gas. He detonates a poison gas bomb in a little town as a test. That causes that all the people living there, dying even a more horrendous and painful death than his mother.
General Standard of this story: So they are many villains in this story and it was hard to pick these six out of them. I now explain you a little bit about the other villains, so you have a rough picture of the heinous standard of this story. The three main villains that appeared first in the story in the first part were a fallen and mutated magician, a cosmic entity and the right-hand of the magician. The mutated magician saw the dark magic of the cosmic entity what causes him to mutate and turns to the dark side. He tried to become immortal and worked for the cosmic entity. The cosmic entity is a being that must feast on planets so it can survive. And the right-hand is an follower of the magician who wants to help him in his goals, the only thing he did, was killing the magicians former mentor. Then the first bigger bad/main villain who had a tragic backstory because his home planet was wiped out in a war. That was his motivation to kill all life in the universe to end the war and suffering and bring "peace". He wanted to be the ruler of a new universe, that is "cleaned" from war and destruction and to build a new population under his control. He actually succeeded in it first, but it was changed by the two only surviving heroes via time travel. There are also two warlords. One that is more comedic and wants to take over an planet and one that is more brutal and kills his victims in brutal ways but not that brutal compared to the crime lord, also he has a code of honor in not killing completely innocents and especially children. Then there is a more Grey Zone villain who redeems himself in the end and joins the heroes. He was the biological son of the scientist mentor but was thought dead because of an failed experiment. He got telekinectic abilities (like Magneto) and wanted to kill humanity for how evil they can be and he thought his father was evil and cruel because of the experiment that failed. Then there is again a warlord who wants to take over an planet, nothing more for him until know. A serial killer who has a higher body count and kills with razor blade weapons. Mastermind, an being who wants to take over the universe to have the full controll over it. And at least, the assistent of the scientist who was just there to support his plans but later redeemed herself.
The only one I would qualify is number 6, the crime lord. The demon is just doing what is in it's nature, with no more malice than a rabid dingo who eats babies. The Granny is trying to stay young, so there is a point to her evil, jerkitude aside, it is not over the top and petty at the cost of others, it is what she need to do to live at the cost of others, still evil and a jerk for the facade, but not irredeemably wicked. Scientists kill babies all the time (Don't look into where lipstick comes from). Like granny, the scientist has a point, a goal and a methodology. I would have to know the context of strangling his daughter too. The alien is a standard imperialist, nothing special. The Silver Schmucker is just powerful, the amount of evil he does is directly proportionate to that power - wiping out a planet to him would be like stepping on an ant-hill for you - something bound to happen eventually just from the weight-class and you are so far removed from each-other, it is a stretch for you to even accept them as lives compared to the level your mind functions on in comparison.
Let's be clear, a lot of deaths does not equal eviler. Example:
Hitler killed 5 million people. Stalin however killed 10 million. You know why both are evil but Hitler is considered worse?
Well 1, look at the size of Germany and then the size of Russia. Yeah, you have to work hard to kill five million people in that region vs that many or even twice as many in the northern half of an entire continent,
2 Hitler ruled for 7 years, Stalin Ruled for 25. Again, do you have any idea how much more one was actively killing vs one that was just incidentally killing those who looked at him funny?
3 Hitler was not just killing his enemies, he was killing off cultures he had made-up his mind it was okay to kill, nay his job to kill. Jews and Roma. Neither of which posed any threat to him or had any beef with him, his genocide was based solely on preconceptions, prejudices, weaved into his region of the world he never questioned and just acted on with extreme malice. Stalin murdered LOTs of people, but most of them were political prisoners, people who stood to dispose him, insight the masses against him, make his breakfast the wrong way, etc, petty, evil but still with a practical benefit to him.
As a good measure think, "If my character had an epiphany and all of a sudden realized what they did was wrong, or they were misguided, or their goals were subverted and they wanted to make things right, could they?" I think granny could, I think Silver Schmucker could, I think Dr. Science could. I think Mr. Demon could. I do no think a mobster who offed his own family in an unnecessarily painful way for little reason other than it was convenient for him or ignored the screams of entire crowds could make that up. That is concentrated, non-essential, sadistic evil.
The demon is like Bill Cipher so he has a clear Moral Agency and he knows what he does is evil, he just don't care. The grandmother hasn't a understandable goal, just because she wants to stay young doesn't justifice her act in drying out children from life energy and killing her own daughter, she is a monster like Ego. And the scientist also doesn't have an understandable goal because he thinks he's the greatest and has an god complex. And the alien is experimenting on infants and slowly sucking all the blood from it's victims. How could they all, in your opinion, not count?
It seems like you don't really understand the Pure Evil category and what a "No Freudian Excuse" is.
If she is killing people for youth, it does justifiy it... to her, Pure Evil does not bohter to try to justify, and her fears are mortal, mortality is an all encompasing factor for sentient life forms - acting out of fear is a survival instinct in it's base form, and it sounds like granny is afraid to grow old and die.
Also Side Note: Please do not talk down to me. I have been both doing this for years and have a minor is psychology, I am aware of what a Freudian Excuse is and how it works. Kindly do not fall into the trap of having read TV Tropes as an excuse to talk down to others, thanks.
Hello there, sorry I took so long to contact you about this (was kinda sick these days). as you must've seen on our discussion at the Discord, we would like to do a full revamp on the Heroes Wiki, much like we did here back in the day, and bring it up to the standards we currently have here. This would involve cleaning up and deletion of various categories, marking plagiarized pages and pages which don't belong there, and rewriting the rules to work similarly as the ones we use here. So far me, Sirin of the Void and Love Robin are up to contribute in this task, plus both Queen Misery and DarkUnknownWarrior have agreed to the plan. I will also contact the remaining active admins from the Heroes Wiki, so if have your approval we can make an announcement and put this task force into action.
Very good. In all honesty due to work hours I have had less and less time to attend to Heroes wiki. But I will help however I can. Tonight I can do a mass purge on the anything with even a trace of Plagerism in it - I dislike deleting things without comparing them, but honestly everyone has been given enough time to straighten out their content. Not all the rules apply, but which did you have in mind?
good news, despite killing off the game years ago its original company are not pursuing destroying private servers - the only thing they are objecting to is sharing code from the game, this means servers like Homecoming etc are semi-"official" in the sense that NCSoft is not going after them legally.
This means that for all intents and purposes the game is back, as long as those servers stay within a certan line - of course only time will tell if this remains the case but it seems NCSoft have no real plans to kill off the servers.. they may even make official servers again (which would close the private ones).. however that may just return the past, knowing NCSoft.. if they make an official server then close it down again : either way, the game is much more secure than people thought.
Does that mean when Homecoming comes out with new content, (Which they do have planned) I may update certain villain articles as they apply? Or for our editing purposes are we keeping our hands off as it does not come from NC Soft itself?
as long as NCSoft does not act against the servers (save when they leak codes, which is what NCSoft is against) then updated content can be added, sure.. as NCSoft basically allow this to exist for now.. they can't officially support it but the fact they do not destroyed the Homecoming servers yet is as close as they can get to saying "okay".. again, until they either publically denounce it or make official servers again they are basically of the "do not care" mode.
Thanks for clarifying, the whole thing was ambiguous for cataloging purposes.
You know, I first started on Villains wiki when I found there was an article on Lord Recluse, but none for his Patrons, and from there I added more and more, I came to Villains wiki in the first place due to the mind-set I was in while playing City of Villains, when it was canceled I fill that villainous void here, for nearly a decade now.