Syndrome released the Omnidroid on the city so that he could look like a hero, never mind how many people got killed as a result of his actions. He also tried to launch a missile at an airplane full of innocents. So, if you disregard the whole trying to kill off the superheroes thing, he was still very much a danger to everyone around him. Therefore, he is a CM. Do not take it off again, unless you give a logical explanation as to why he shouldn't count.
True, but crossing the MEH on it's own doesn't always make one a CM. They have to be a villain with absolute zero redeeming features and depravity that gets reflected in the deeds they commit. While Ghetsis operates on a smaller scale than some other Pokemon villains, I'd say he fits the bill all the same.
Though I'm against Ghetsis for my own reasons, Giovanni was small time compared to Ghetsis. Ghetsis tried to take over the world via much more unscrupulous and manipulative ways. Giovanni, on the other hand, doesn't stand out.
Exactly. It's not about his goals: world domination is the most standard form of villainy. It's about the MEANS he uses in the name of that goal, the resources he has at his disposal and how he much damage he does with them on what scale, and that he has no remotely positive or redeeming features on top of that. Giovanni never rises above standard criminal mastermind villainy, but Ghetsis does - through subtle but despicable manipulation of hearts and minds, or even outright terrorism in the sequel games.
Why exactly are you against Ghetsis' inclusion, LostGod2000?
I've given my reasons; it's primarily due to the screwed up heinous standard. You have your reasons, and I have mine, and I have a feeling neither of us are going to sway each other, so I'd prefer we didn't start discussing it.
I really feel that we shouldn't need to adhere to TV Tropes' "heinous standard", especially their insistence on a criteria of "baseline heinousness" which is nowhere on the actual trope page's description and definition of the trope. Cyrus may have been an Omnicidal Maniac, but there have always been villains operating on a smaller scale that end up being worse than he is. In the anime, it was Hunter J. In the "Diamond And Pearl Adventure" manga, it was Charon. In the games, it's Ghetsis. Even in a series with homicidial maniacs, a villain lacking in redeeming features who goes all out in being a torturer and master manipulator can be called a Complete Monster.
These edits need to stop. Villains Wiki doesn't strictly adhere to TV Trope's abritrary standards in regards to heinous standards. Here, CM is defined in a way that allows a villain such as Ghetsis to pass:
"The Complete Monster is the worst of all villains, a villain who is pure evil. (Ghetsis checks this off, since he's characterized as pure evil.) And for this kind of villain, doing evil for them is as natural as breathing. (Check, being an evil dick seems to come completely naturally to Ghetsis) They can be recognized by these signs: They commit acts that are atrocious by the standards of the story, and have crossed the Moral Event Horizon. (Check, tell me how Ghetsis' combined deeds in both BW games don't put him over the MEH?) They cause fear, revulsion or hatred from other characters in the story. (Check, this one is blatant by the end of the first BW). They are never presented in a positive way, (Check, unless you want to count Zinzolin's insane devotion and the Shadow Triad's life debt). Nothing justifies their crimes, and they cannot feel empathy and never redeem themselves. (Check, he has no excuse, is an unempathetic, self-absorbed sociopath, and he's beyond redemption, ending the story not redeemed.)"
Also, pretty much any non-TV Tropes sites regards Ghetsis as a Complete Monster at this point. Why bother to keep deleting a category that is majority opinion on this villain?
There's one dividing point between us, as where you see his actions make him a Complete Monster, I think that they aren't enough, especially in comparison to the other villains of Pokemon. But, I digress. If I'm outvoted, I'll have this one slip, and someone ought to tell Piglet too.
Well as I've put it before, smaller scale villains have been known to hit what's considered beyond the pale for Pokemon's heinous standard. Hunter J is just a bounty hunter operating in the same series as an omnicidal maniac and his team, yet she qualifies more that they do. In the DPA manga, Cyrus tried to obliterate the universe so that he could remake it in his image, and yet Charon still surpassed him in pure, horrific, irredeemable evil. Ghetsis' plans weren't as grandiose as Cyrus or Lysandre's, but he has a sheer devilishness he puts into his actions and behavior that the other villains lack, particularly in his fondness for torture of all kinds - physical, mental, and emotional. Plus, while other villains might have plans that would ultimately kill people if they succeed, Ghetsis has been the most direct in how he handles attempted murder, shown in the climax of BW, his entire plan in BW2 (as Robin stated), and his order to have Kyurem use Glaciate on the Player Character. He doesn't want to make everything go boom: he'd rather kill people where they stand, because he's just that atrocious a person.
It's the same franchise though, but you are right. The anime is one continuity where Ghetsis does not qualify, since he only got to be about as heinous as Giovanni, if even less so. But I was talking about how the franchise has had a history of small scale villains being depicted as Complete Monsters who hit their story's heinous standard: J in the anime, Charon in that manga, and Ghetsis in the games.
So when someone says Ghetsis' actions "aren't enough", it's likely because they're comparing him to villains who operated on a larger scale. The fact of the matter is that many of the larger scale villains whose villainy seems "more heinous" than Ghetsis did not hit all criteria, wheras Ghetsis, within his smaller scale, DID hit all criteria.
Cyrus wanted to use Dialga and Palkia's powers to destroy the universe so that he, as the new god of time and space, could remake it (and everyone/everything in it) but devoid of spirit, which he believed was responsible for all hardships in life. While this is probably the most heinous intent of any Big Bad in the main Pokemon games, many people overlook the fact that Cyrus was planning to restore all the lives he'd take if his plan succeeded, and that he sincerely believed he was doing the universe a service. He also never once intended to physically harm anyone, and even respected the player character - enough to give a free Master Ball!
Well most Pokemon villains seeking world domination have been pretty standard about it, except if you believe the heads of Cipher were ultimately out for world domination. Otherwise, Ghetsis is the only single villain who resorted to extra despicable means in the name of his world conquest goal, and his only reason for having that goal in the first place were because he desired power over everyone and everything just because he felt entitled to it.
Robinsonbecky wrote: So basically, she's for herself. ANd you've seen the film?
Yes I seen most of it but my parents walked in it was when and this is a bad part but I am gonna to say it when she shoved glass up her private parts and that's as far as I saw and trust me after that I was done with the movie
The YouTube Poop involving Mr. Krabs was played out like a horror film, and is played as straight as it possibly could. Heck, TV Tropes itself acknowledges it as being unusually serious on the YTP's main page. Again, we are not TV Tropes. They would often make mistakes regarding their candidates, so I don't completely rely on them to tell me what qualifies as a complete monster or not.
Again, it's played very seriously even if the plot was slightly out there. Just look at Kill La Kill. That plot was extremely ridiculous, yet it manages to have a CM in the form of Ragyo Kiryuin. Again, the YTP is not so ridiculous if you look at the plot. It is one of the few poops that has a linear storyline. We see Krabs' descent into madness and murder, and we also see what effect that Krabs had on teh other characters. The only ridiculous parts of the YTP came from Krabs turning into Moar Krabs, but that's mostly it. This YTP still quite clearly tries to portray Krabs in a more sinister light, and it succeeds. Overall, he counts for this category.
That's because those times they were meant to be played for laughs. Each Poop has a different atmosphere and setting. Pretty much what I'm saying is that most Poops don't have a continuity in them. Therefore, the atmosphere for a YTP can be changed in a way that can make the Poop more serious. This is what this Poop does.
Can you please watch that damn scene about those terrible kids from Elfen Lied. Also, please leave Tomoo alone will you. Those stupid bullies are MONSTERS!!!!!!!! Watch the video on their page will you & check the reactions of everyone on Youtube.
They are evil!!!!!!!! They are obviously complete monsters as they are one of the MOST HATED VILLAINS EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Almost everyone hated these terrible kids. They qualify for the ff reasons: 1. They bullied Lucy for no good reason 2. They ruthlessly killed an animal who was the only source of Lucy's love and joy as they want to see her suffer & they don't even care for that poor puppy. If Lucy have not killed them in the first place, they could have turned into something more worse that Lucy herself like a serial killer for instance 3. They showed no remorse as the enjoyed it 4. They are revoked by another villain, argubly the Orphanage Girl a.k.a. Traitor Girl 5. They are not tragic enough like Lotso to be understand as they are orphans with no tragic backstory 6. Being a kid doesn't mean children can't be monsters as well. Damien Thorn, Henry Evans & Leena Klammer are complete monsters despite being kids. 7. Tomoo's buddies are obviously not forced as they took interest in torturing her as one of they helped him kill the puppy by holding it 8. They never ever redeemed themselves as they died in disgrace 9. Lucy call them as the ones who aren't even human (see quote on their page) 10. Because of them, Lucy is already a killer who killed countless people, including Kouta's sister & father 11. They are one of the most hated villains ever as no one really liked them 12. They caused hatred throughout the series. 13. TV Tropes not labeling them as such is not an excuse. Group reasoning is an unecessary excuse as well. Syndrome is not labeled as as a monster since its obvious he is. There are times TV Tropes itself is wrong as they failed to qualify some like Syndrome as a monster. Now please watch that damn scene about those stupid bullies from Elfen Lied on their page. Everyone here considers them as complete monsters.
They are purely evil. Please watch that damn video on that page. Youre the one who is not listening. The Bullies are fully pure complete monsters. They are obviously in the same league as Chris Hargensen from Carrie (minus her 2002 incarnation) as they refused to give up tormenting the protagonist, showed no remorse, cross MEH & died in disgrace. The bullies are among Elfen Lied's top most hated villains alongside the psychotic genocidal main villain, the disgusting pedophile mercenary & Mayu's parent. You should see the looks on their faces as none of them showed remorse. One of them helped Tomoo hold the poor puppy. Yes, the main villain and the pedophile mercenary are monsters but the bullies are more hated than they are. Now please watch the video.
Again you should probably leave out what other people think a complete monster is, since, in general, their opinions don't generally count, because they may not know the criteria relating to this trope. As far as I can tell, all of the Bullies passed the criteria for this category. None of the Bullies were depicted in a positive light, nor were they given a backstory to explain them as being evil, they never felt remorse for relentlessly bullying Lucy, even to the point of killing the one thing that she loved, they are repulsive. However, the main problem regarding the Bullies is whether or not they pass the heinous standard for this series. I would say yes, they do. One of the main ideas for this series is the fact that Lucy despises humanity. We learn that they are the reason as to why she hated humanity, and they had all managed to attack her on a more personal level than any of the other Elfen Lied antagonists will ever do. They were ultimately the ones to have started her Start to Darkness, and they are indirectly responsible for the massacres that follow.
I just only heard about that mercenary's actions (I prefer to call the unknown man mercenary rather than how everyone called him) but if you still would see, the bullies are exactly in the same league as he is. They refuse to stop, even if someone told them to. Both characters seemed to develop some similarities as I started to observe mercenary's actions as both are revoked by another villain (Bullies: argubly Traitor Girl; mercenary or also known as unknown man or the hunter: Bando), both characters harmed animals (the bullies are successful in killing Lucy's puppy & this mercenary almost killed Wanta), both are misogynists (mercenary is a pedophile rapist; bullies make fun of an innocent little girl who did nothing on them & they even shouted at their arguble accomplice). If you can see how everyone reacted, some of them stated they could have turned into something worse like a serial killer more worse than Lucy herself if she had not killed them in the first place. Even TV Tropes itself stated they could have turned into a serial killer when they grow up. This is just an opinion of mine if Lucy could have spared the bullies, they could probably serial killers, animal killers & rapists right now & even probably even in the same league as the mercenary. They could probably ended up being like the mercenary right now if they were still alive.
It's not just the fact they killed the dog, it's how and why. They did it for the rather slight reason of stirring emotion from here, in thus killing her only friend at that time, and it's clearly depicted as horrid as it can be. It might not be that big a deal in some other forms of media (notably ones that'd play this stuff for black comedy) but it's clearly supposed to be shown as one of the worst actions in the series, as well as the monsters humans can be. We're supposed to see them as monsters, and therefore, they are.
Never mind their reactions when the dog bleeds out. The show is trying to play them as horrible as can be. The only reason TV Tropes wouldn't accept them is because of their rules when it comes to being a Monster. Really, it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you do it heinously enough.
It's just that none of the bullies really stand out from each other, even if the all crossed the MEH...and it was only implied that they were going to become serial killers in the event that they reached adulthood...
Tomoo's the one that sticks out the most, being the leader and all. And besides, he's the one that has the most personality out of all the other bullies combined. He is the most sadistic, the most psychotic, and quite frankly, an asshole in the making. He was the one who decided to kill the dog, after all. And with the whole serial killer thing, it is shown that he might've become one had he grown up, but the concern here is about what he managed to do while still being alive. The other Bullies don't even have names, but that's besides the point. Overall, if none of the other Bullies are considered monsters, Tomoo most certainly is one.
On the other two, if you could see the looks on their pyschotic faces, they obviously weren't forced. You could see that one of those two (the one who almost looks like a younger version of Kurama) help stupid old Tomoo hold the puppy so he could easily beat it to death. You should watch the video properly, even though Tomoo's buddies have little personality out of them.
Tomoo is the only one who counts as a Complete Monster. The other kids are implied to be going along with him so that he won't bully them, and the girl might have been innocent of everything - whether she was actually giving an evil smirk or if that was just imagined by Kaede is left ambiguous.
If they indeed are just forced to work with him by going along, then why didn't any of those two morons (not counting Traitor Girl) felt remorse or guilty after their stupid boss killed the puppy? Not everyone agrees that stupid Tomoo is the only monster of the gang. You could see in the looks of his buddies that they aren't forced as they physicaly enjoyed it. They probably took interest as well & decided to choose stupid Tomoo as their leader. They were smiling wickedly when they do it. One helped him hold the puppy so their idiotic boss can kill it easily & the other one hold Lucy while smiling & forcing her to watch. They didn't show any symptoms of questioning or remorse. It can be stated that they are probably good friends with him.
I never said they were "forced" to: they CHOSE to because they knew Tomoo might bully them if they didn't. Out of selfishness and fear of getting hurt, they chose to be bullies rather than bullying victims. And yes, they and Tomoo got along well by the time of the events in Lucy's flashback. Their actions and motives make these stupid kids worthless scum, but not necessarily COMPLETE Monsters. They're characterized in such a one-note way that I don't think it's inconcievable that, had they lived, they could have eventually gotten counciling and turned their lives around. Tomoo, by contrast, was characterized as a sociopathic budding serial killer waiting to happen. If that sort of person grew up and found a larger scale to work in and more people to hurt, he'd be completely heinous.
The indication is from Lucy's line about how they hurt others so that they can't be hurt themselves. They make themselves enjoy tormenting others to conceal their own pain while ensuring that they're the ones dealing out the pain rather than on the recieving end. Which is nasty, but not entirely pure evil material.
Empress Mitsuru wrote: I agree with Swoobatman on this matter.
Be patient Empress Mitsuru, these fools will soon realize their obviously humiliating mistake soon enough. I will just let fate deal with them so they will realize their own mistake over the pathetic excuse & delusional belief they did. I won't fight them, fate will.
Can we please stop taking about these kids, all they are poorly written characters with no redeeming qualities whos actions were incrediblly over the top just to make you feel sorry for the main character. They are not well portrayed or well written they are just bland cliche bullies. While we are on this they fail in the one thing they were supposed to do, make you sympathised with Lucy you know why because I just can't feel an once of sympathy for a character who goes around killing innocent people. Sorry but I had to do this the moment I saw this thread
To say that is to deny Lucy culpability for her own decisions. The bullies didn't tell her to go around killing innocent people in order to take their homes for herself - that was all on her. Now the voice of her DNA is the culprit for her going off the deep end, but that was still sort of her in a sense.
In my opinion the only argument against the other two bullies qualifying is lack of characterisation, and that reminds me of something I've been meaning to discuss, I've noticed Ares (God of War) recently lost his CM label because it was decided that Kratos is worse. I haven't played any of the God of War games but from what I've heard he definitely sounds like a valid example, think of him as the Tomoo to Kratos's Lucy.