Reasons NOT to delete James Ironwood's page is simply that his actions are not only sacrificing the lives of innocents, but is also now opposed to Team RWBY. Robyn Hill is considered an anti-hero/anti-villain as well, and I did previously suggest her page be deleted but was told her actions are still villainous despite honorable motive. Well, Ironwood's recent actions, no matter how rational, are far worse than Robyn Hill's could ever be. He is not THE villain, he's not even evil, but he is A villain because of his elitist disregard for other human lives outside of Atlas.
- Hill is a criminal vigilante that has performed numerous crimes for well-intentioned reasons. While Ironwood's actions are extreme, they are not illegal, and just because he is in opposition to Team RWBY dos not make him villainous. Antagonist ≠ villain. He is also justified, as Team RWBY did betray him and he is trying to save Atlas. If he takes more extreme and criminal actions there will be potential for a restoration, but as of now he is not a villain. NerdWithAKeyboard (talk) 18:49, January 21, 2020 (UTC)
- He literally admitted he would be intentionally sacrificing innocent lives. He is knowingly endangering citizens with his plan to raise Atlas into the sky. The other council members, even after Jacques' arrest, have stated Ironwood is overstepping his bounds and taking matters into his own hands. Ironwood belongs on this wiki. Penguinluver1431 (talk) 19:12, January 21, 2020 (UTC)
- Would also like to quickly add that criminal vigilantism does not make someone a villain. Many characters, notably Robin Hood to which Robyn alludes, along with plenty of characters on the heroes wiki, are considered 'good' even though in technical terms they breaks the law, even if it is for well-intentioned reasons. Likewise, people who are in positions of law enforcement are not only not inherently heroic, but also in an even bigger position to use that power for villainous actions. Even if it is "justified" in legal terms, it is not in moral terms, which is why he is more than just an 'antagonist'. Penguinluver1431 (talk) 19:12, January 21, 2020 (UTC)
- Hill barely counts but does due to her acts being serious crimes on a government not really corrupt due to a misunderstanding, Ironwood thus far is justified in his acts as he's rightfully treating it as a war where he has two options: 1. Protect those he can but forced to leave others some behind or 2. Keep everyone at risk and potentially have everyone die. Realistically he is doing the justifiable act to save those he can from what he believes is certain doom. I agree with Nerd in that so far he hasn't crossed the moral line when he's being a realist. If later more blatant sure he can be restored but currently not the case. Jester of chaos (talk) 13:58, January 24, 2020 (UTC)
- Refresh my memory; how exactly is intentionally letting poor people die justifiable? War hasn't even broken out yet, he's just leaving the weak behind knowing exactly what will happen by leaving them to the Grimm. And how is Atlas government not corrupt? They're the epitome of xenophobia, and Ironwood is one of the top leaders of Atlas. Penguinluver1431 (talk) 03:04, January 25, 2020 (UTC)
- Just because some Atlas officials are racist doesn't mean Ironwood is; he has never shown any signs of xenophobia or discrimination (even if he did, xenophobia is not a crime). Robyn Hill, though her intentions are noble, steals from the government and assaults Atlas soldiers (essentially police officers) to get what she wants; she doesn't work alongside the law like most "heroic" vigilantes, she directly opposes it and many of her actions are the reason why Ironwood cannot trust people. Ironwood, on the other hand, can either choose to save Atlas and Remnant or no one at all, and he's made his judgement call. He's making a tough decision, but the only other option is risking everyone and trusting a group of people who have lied to and betrayed him. IF he crosses a line into illegal actions he will potentially get a page as an anti-villain, but as of now he is simply a case of Good vs. Good. NerdWithAKeyboard (talk) 05:20, January 25, 2020 (UTC)
- "Xenophobia is not a crime". Wow. Did you even try hiding your "Atlas good Mantle bad" mentality? And Good vs. Good is more along the lines of the Avengers fighting over the Sokovia Accords. They never jeopardized innocent civilians during their disagreements, they duked it out between each other. Ironwood is directly throwing Mantle to the wolves knowing full well there are innocent people in it, knowing full well that if they really cared, they would do everything in their power to keep the transports running until everyone is out. RWBY vs. Ironwood is not Good vs. Good, it's Good vs. Lawful Evil. Penguinluver1431 (talk) 06:12, January 25, 2020 (UTC)
- As bad as xenophobia is, it is not illegal, in RWBY nor in real life. I suggest you drop the topic until the next episode. NerdWithAKeyboard (talk) 08:33, January 25, 2020 (UTC)
- "Xenophobia is not a crime". Wow. Did you even try hiding your "Atlas good Mantle bad" mentality? And Good vs. Good is more along the lines of the Avengers fighting over the Sokovia Accords. They never jeopardized innocent civilians during their disagreements, they duked it out between each other. Ironwood is directly throwing Mantle to the wolves knowing full well there are innocent people in it, knowing full well that if they really cared, they would do everything in their power to keep the transports running until everyone is out. RWBY vs. Ironwood is not Good vs. Good, it's Good vs. Lawful Evil. Penguinluver1431 (talk) 06:12, January 25, 2020 (UTC)
- Just because some Atlas officials are racist doesn't mean Ironwood is; he has never shown any signs of xenophobia or discrimination (even if he did, xenophobia is not a crime). Robyn Hill, though her intentions are noble, steals from the government and assaults Atlas soldiers (essentially police officers) to get what she wants; she doesn't work alongside the law like most "heroic" vigilantes, she directly opposes it and many of her actions are the reason why Ironwood cannot trust people. Ironwood, on the other hand, can either choose to save Atlas and Remnant or no one at all, and he's made his judgement call. He's making a tough decision, but the only other option is risking everyone and trusting a group of people who have lied to and betrayed him. IF he crosses a line into illegal actions he will potentially get a page as an anti-villain, but as of now he is simply a case of Good vs. Good. NerdWithAKeyboard (talk) 05:20, January 25, 2020 (UTC)
- Refresh my memory; how exactly is intentionally letting poor people die justifiable? War hasn't even broken out yet, he's just leaving the weak behind knowing exactly what will happen by leaving them to the Grimm. And how is Atlas government not corrupt? They're the epitome of xenophobia, and Ironwood is one of the top leaders of Atlas. Penguinluver1431 (talk) 03:04, January 25, 2020 (UTC)
- Hill barely counts but does due to her acts being serious crimes on a government not really corrupt due to a misunderstanding, Ironwood thus far is justified in his acts as he's rightfully treating it as a war where he has two options: 1. Protect those he can but forced to leave others some behind or 2. Keep everyone at risk and potentially have everyone die. Realistically he is doing the justifiable act to save those he can from what he believes is certain doom. I agree with Nerd in that so far he hasn't crossed the moral line when he's being a realist. If later more blatant sure he can be restored but currently not the case. Jester of chaos (talk) 13:58, January 24, 2020 (UTC)
Do you think the Ace-Ops should be given their Villain Pages since they are willing compliling with Ironwood's orders and leaving Mantle to die? Malcolm Neill (talk) 19:57, February 2, 2020 (UTC)
- Probably not as of yet, as they were just following orders so far and some like Marrow were actually being more reasonable than Team RWBY in trying to negotiate instead of fight. They aren't aware that Ironwood tried to kill Oscar, but if they get more criminal or do nothing about Ironwood's potential criminal actions, then maybe. NerdWithAKeyboard (talk) 20:50, February 2, 2020 (UTC)