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  • If you really want to know my thoughts, here:


    Baseline: The setting. We can expect villains to kill, rape, do evil things. But for a candidate to qualify, their actions must stick out in comparison to the other villains. Basically before I continue, evey character affects the heinous standard even heroes.


    Relative: What is truly heinous in the story. For something like a crime drama, say person A kills 5 people, while person B kills 50. Person B would stand out as more heinous. However, if person B has mitigating factors, neither would qualify, but the latter is still immensely heinous. The tier system, resources and the like can also be factored in here. However, if some villain uses their resources to commit crimes that are commonplace in the setting, they don't stand out there.

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    • Okay, since I can now, I'll address this a bit at a time:

      Firstly, I think we agree on the concept of a heinous standard. Where we are disagreeing is what makes it and what doesn't. So, for example, I may think Villain X makes the heinous standard based on their sum total of evil deeds, whereas you may/probably will disagree. I think that's the big issue here; one person's monster is another person's "just another bad guy".

      As far as "using their resources to commit crimes that are commonplace", I simply don't agree. Because, for example, murder is common as a crime. Tarkin used his resources to commit lots of murders. Does that invalidate him? Of course not. What matters is the sum total of evil deeds committed by a villain and whether or not it's enough.

      So again, we agree that there is a heinous standard, it's just that I think your criteria for it is a lot stricter than mine. To me, only the following is standard-fare villainy:

      Trying to kill the heroes

      Trying to take over the world

      Being a jerk

      Petty theft

      Petty lying

      Anything else is what I call "non-standard villainy". But obviously, things like just one murder of an innocent or just one rape, are not enough. BUT, several evil deeds all totaled for a villain who is noticably bad for someone at their level of resources, should be evil enough to fit.

      That's my stance, anyway.

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    • Or you would have something like say Tales from the Crypt: the only person that counts is a serial killer that had killed 12 people onscreen. If a villain commits one or two acts of murder, and they have no redeeming traits, they are outheinoused by the one that committed 12 acts of murder and stands out as a serial killer.

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    • AustinDR wrote:
      Or you would have something like say Tales from the Crypt: the only person that counts is a serial killer that had killed 12 people onscreen. If a villain commits one or two acts of murder, and they have no redeeming traits, they are outheinoused by the one that committed 12 acts of murder and stands out as a serial killer.

      I understand the logic there, but I don't see how that applies to the villains I proposed. Hitler, for instance, was as destructive as he possibly could be given his level of resources. Also, once one's bodycount gets into the millions, I feel that disqualifying a villain because he has one or two million less than the other guy rings hollow. But Hitler for one did as much damage as he feasibly could given his level of resources. 

      Similarly, Dottie Underwood in Agent Carter: there is no villain in the entire MCU at her level of resources that's crimes are on the level of killing a whole theater full of people and then trying to do the same to an entire city. Consider this: If Dottie and her boss had succeeded, they would have gotten the entire population of NYC to kill one another. That is worse than what Loki attempted in Avengers despite his having better resources, tech, AND superpowers. Dottie Underwood's overall crimes are far worse than what people in-setting with actual superpowers have done. She should meet the heinous standard based on that.

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    • I guess the issue here would be how many villains here basically try to kill millions of people. Once again, if their actions amount to something that is commonplace in the setting, I don't see how said character would stand out. Villains like Ego in the MCU have tried to make everything in the universe into himself, but what sets him a part from someone like say Malekith is how he also has his share of personal crimes such as conceiving children with multiple alien women and then kidnapping and killing them if they don't show any sign of his Celestial DNA. He had killed so many children, that he has a pile of bones that were originally belonging to his children, and then there's what he does to Meredith. But then again, Ego is a near godlike being with a seemingly limitless amount of resources, while Dottie herself is just a mere human working with what she has.

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    • AustinDR wrote:
      I guess the issue here would be how many villains here basically try to kill millions of people. Once again, if their actions amount to something that is commonplace in the setting, I don't see how said character would stand out. Villains like Ego in the MCU have tried to make everything in the universe into himself, but what sets him a part from someone like say Malekith is how he also has his share of personal crimes such as conceiving children with multiple alien women and then kidnapping and killing them if they don't show any sign of his Celestial DNA. He had killed so many children, that he has a pile of bones that were originally belonging to his children, and then there's what he does to Meredith. But then again, Ego is a near godlike being with a seemingly limitless amount of resources, while Dottie herself is just a mere human working with what she has.

      Exactly my point: and the same logic applies to Hitler; he did not have godlike power but was as foul as he possibly could be in-setting. He more than stands out, and in-universe as well as out is seen as an exceptionally evil monster. And yeah, Dottie has nothing close to Ego or even Red Skull's resources. And remember what I said: she is weaker even than characters like Vulture, Yellowjacket, Whiplash, Iron Monger, Mandarin, and especially Loki, and yet her actions were in some ways worse than all those characters, none of whom tried to wipe out an entire city's population except maybe Loki, and he had WAY more to his name than Dottie, so it's telling that her attempted crimes rival his despite vastly inferior resources.

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    • I understand that point; with resources, there is a point where they don't work if the villain's actions amount to something that is commonplace. Take the Dragon Ball series: destroying planets happens frequently throughout the series. Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta, Cell threatens to destroy the Earth and his ultimate scheme would be the complete destruction of the universe, Super Buu killed every person on Earth that weren't able to avoid it, Zamasu attempts to destroy all mortals in the multiverse, etc. Basically the franchise has a seriously jacked up heinous standard where destroying a planet isn't enough.

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    • AustinDR wrote:
      I understand that point; with resources, there is a point where they don't work if the villain's actions amount to something that is commonplace. Take the Dragon Ball series: destroying planets happens frequently throughout the series. Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta, Cell threatens to destroy the Earth and his ultimate scheme would be the complete destruction of the universe, Super Buu killed every person on Earth that weren't able to avoid it, Zamasu attempts to destroy all mortals in the multiverse, etc. Basically the franchise has a seriously jacked up heinous standard where destroying a planet isn't enough.

      Except at least three of those four characters you named are Complete Monsters (Cell, Frieza, and Super Buu). And as it is, none of that applies to any of the villains I named, as none of them are from DBZ.

      So really, shouldn't my candidates fit? Because they are all pretty darn bad considering their level of resources and screen time relative to other characters. I am most firm in my insistence that Grodd, Riddler, Dottie, and Hitler all fit. No reason at all why they shouldn't.

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