• We need to discuss this before the editing gets any more heated. Plus, if I get another editing conflict and have to start again for the umpteenth time today, I'm going to have an aneurysm.

    You stated that Torque's Hatred is indeed a Malefactor; however, you then said that it was a manifestation of Torque's inner demons... meaning that by your own definition, it's not a Malefactor. It's not a reflection of the sins of the past, but a part of Torque's brain - in fact, it's that hissing voice in the back of Torque's head throughout the game (Blackmore replaces it in the sequel).

    So, like Blackmore, it's a secondary personality - but unlike Blackmore, it's been able to achieve a seperate existence through the supernatural properties of Carnate Island.

    With this in mind, I recommend we remove Torque's Hatred from the Malefactors page and give it an entry of its own.

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    • hissing voice-- You mean the voice that urges Torque to commit evil things? You said Malefactors are also manifestation of violence and decay, to which Torque guy possesses TONS of. How do you make of Torque-like being attached to Torque's Hatred (like a baby having an umbilical cord.)? All Malefactors are manifestations. And Torque's Hatred is a manifestation.

      I am guessing that Torque suffers multiple personality disorder.

      btw, are you SURE Copperfield and Creeper are not Malefactors?

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    • Well, yes - he suffers from multiple personality disorder. That's kind of established over the course of the game: Jordan's notes mention that Blackmore is ONE of Torque's multiple personalities. So yeah, Torque's brain is pretty crowded.

      But basically, it's not a manifestation of the violence of a place, nor is it a victim's pain infllicted on the rest of the world or punishment bestowed upon the executioners: it's a manifestation of the violence within a PERSON. Completely different kettle of fish. And that umbilicus - that's another representation of how it differs from Malefactors: it's not tied to the land, but quite literally bonded with Torque. 

      And yes, I'm confident that Copperfield and Creeper are not Malefactors: among other things, they aren't mentioned in Jordan's notes on the Malefactors of the game, nor do they demonstrate a physically consistent existence - unlike the Malefactors, they are more spectral in nature, flickering in and out of reality at will without any regard for portals or pools. Also, they are not automatically violent, and can interact peaceably with Torque if they so desire: all other Malefactors attack on sight - the exception to this being the Infernas, only when they are in their human form. With this in mind, they're more akin to the ghosts of Carnate, like Hermes and Horace (and possibly the human forms of the Infernas now that I think about it).

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    • All right. I accept that Copperfield and Creeper are not malefactors. (I'm glad that part of argument is concluded)

      But Torque's Hatred is listed as one of Malefactors in Suffering wiki. (I just checked the wiki) I assume manifestation of the violence within a person that is Torque's level also counts.

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    • Here's the thing: the designation of "Malefactor" likely didn't even exist when the original game was created - the label wasn't introduced until the events of Ties That Bind. Also, as we've both demonstrated, wikis can be edited by anyone, so there's a limit to how much authority we can ascribe to it as a source. Plus, we don't have to do the same thing as other wikis, do we? 

      But here's the thing: even if we can classify it as a Malefactor - one born of internal conflict rather than external conflict -Torque's Hatred is too unique to belong in the main article. Not only is this entity unlike any other Malefactor in the series, but it plays a direct role in the events of the first game quite unlike that of the normal Malefactors - though the role it plays isn't physical until the climax, of course. It's whispering in Torque's head for every major morality choice of the game, spurring him on to greater heights of violence. In the evil ending, even if its "Malefactor" form is destroyed, it wins anyway when Torque degenerates into his Rage permanently (until the sequel, of course).

      Hence why I think we should give Torque's Hatred an article of its own.

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    • hey, if you can bring Torque's Hatred an article go for it. You seem knowledgeable enough. Can you bring out more information than what I already summoned?

      you are right. the term Malefactors didn't exist in the first game. 

      What we can do, is that include Torque's Hatred as a part of Malefactors, and then have people move to the main article of Torque's Hatred. I mean:

      Saw the article. We need more information. It is too short. It will be shot down.

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    • What the...

      Oh god, I didn't even know this page even existed! Holy crap!

      You're right, this definitly needs signifcant expansion.

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    • I added some information. Care to chip in?

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    • Underway and searching for images. Thank you for your time.

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    • I was waiting for an aficionado like you.

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    • A FANDOM user
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