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  • Okay, I think we need to discuss some things with regards to Demise (and by extension, Ghirahim). First of all, I'm doing this now because I just got around to finishing the game after all this time, so I felt like I could better judge what categories were more fitting. I'm obviously not trying to cause any problems. Second, I just added the Leader and Monster categories because in the game's opening cinematic scene, he was heavily implied to lead his forces against the Goddess Hylia, hence why I think the first one is accurate, and I feel like the Monster category applies because of his Imprisoned form, where he comes off more like a simpler, feral beast as opposed to a God or Demon. Finally, while I rarely use the Game Changer category due to it being very subjective and leading to edit wars, I thought it was safe to apply to him and Ghirahim, because while Hyrule may face a litany of similar threats, they're the ones who essentially start it all, not to mention that within their own game, they're definitely responsible for all the game's darker aspects and stand out as very credible threats to an otherwise light and peaceful setting. Therefore, of all the series' antagonists, I think that they're two of the most fitting for it. After all, it's not like the game is very dark or serious otherwise.

    I'm sorry if I'm suddenly rubbing you the wrong way by doing this, but I did put thought into adding these categories, and I really don't want to be responsible for or get in trouble for edit-warring. Besides, I know that suddenly changing my name and avatar and coincidentally not contributing to these pages before under my previous name may make me seem like a different user, but I'm clearly still the same person, and you know I'm not the type to spam/abuse categories on purpose, right?

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    • Alright I’ll address it: just because in canon timeline wise appears before doesn’t change the fact Zelda isn’t shy to dark elements even before they appeared in the games (the game is essentially a prequel) threats why neither are Game Changers. Game Changers are for stories/series that are extremely comical and lighthearted which Zelda really isn’t, rather it’s an adventure series with dark/serious elements and characters for a long time per norm of similar adventure stories they simply don’t show anything too graphic onscreen as they try to avoid using a lot of blood.

      As for the Monsters thing even in his imprisoned form he’s pretty much a feral demon, per category they do not overlap. Leader I don’t disagree with that removal being an accident which is why I re-added it a moment ago.

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    • I see. Thanks for the clarification. The application of the Game Changers category sounds really complicated. For a while, I thought it was the equivalent of Knight of Cerebus over on you-know-where, and that it could apply to any villain or antagonist that stands out as particularly dark, threatening and serious for their respective work. In other words, even if the work isn't super lighthearted or comedic, they can still be this if they bring a level of darkness that is often not seen otherwise. For example, I'm actually surprised Dimentio isn't listed as one, since while he's not the first major threat, he still threatened the whole multiverse, which is on a scale that's largely unheard of otherwise, and a major reason why the game is often seen as the darkest of any of the Mario games. Is it because Count Bleck was already trying to destroy the multiverse, albeit for more sympathetic and tragic reasons?

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    • Well it was originally know under that name but we are far more strict (that place has listed stuff from dark works simply because they were “darker” than the average) as for Dimentio he’s one I’ve always found mildly debatable but it’s partly because he’s comical until near the end along with Count Bleck trying to destroy creation and combined with the fact Paper Mario having darker villains as a whole is to my understanding why he’s been removed.

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    • Oh that's right, I read a while ago it used to be called that. Well, if that's how strictly it's applied, I'll just try to avoid adding it wherever it seems like there's room for debate and could lead to edit-warring. If anything, the way it's applied here it sounds like it's more comparable to the "Vile Villain, Saccharine Show" trope. Speaking of which, could Jafar (2019) be safely added? Having seen the movie several times and even being the one who did a PE proposal for him last year, I feel like he stands in pretty stark contrast with the film he's in. 

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    • With Jafar I lean no but can’t say for certainty given I haven’t seen it, of what I’ve seen and heard of the live actions they tend to keep a serious tone just some comedic moments with him sounding overall similar to the original just a bit worse given the attempt to wipe out an entire kingdom for revenge.

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    • A FANDOM user
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